Help with symbolism on Claudius II tet

[Johnny]

from what I've seen on Roman coins  is that all symbolism has a meaning .

I can understand the reason and significance for most symbolism on coins,  including the ones  depicting various roman Gods holding various objects  such as Diana with crescent headress holding torch,  sol holding globe, Victory  with wreath  and palm branch,  Laetitia with  anchor and wreath  ect  ect

But  I'm at a loss on why Poseidon is holding grain as see on this coin,  is there a reason  for the grain  or am I just reading too much in this coin ? 

thanks in advance for any help

[curtislclay]

Apparently it is doubtful what Poseidon is holding.

You see a wheat ear, Geissen 3045 however sees an "Aphlaston (?)" on the Cologne specimen.

I'm not 100% satisfied with either ID of the object. However it is not a matter I have ever noticed or thought about before!

[slokind]

This is merely to report that when I saw your Poseidon, the first thing that entered my mind's eye, so to speak, was a room in the Museo Nazionale Romano in Rome, where some huge and somewhat awesome bronze rams from the sea battle, from a ship that went down, are exhibited.  Someone else probably will supply the history that has slipped my mind.
But Poseidon might well hold something the shape of a ram from a war ship.
Trasimeme, possibly?
Pat L.

[rennrad12020]

Milne calls it a sword 4252-54.  Nautical references sound better.
A handsome coin! JPW

[slokind]

Well, there's a whole gallery in the MNR in the Palazzo Massimo exhibiting real bronze parts of ships and so on.  Preserved anaerobically and conserved since lifted.  They are big enough to be like those on the Rostra in the Forum Romanun, and rostrum, of course, means 'beak': the timbers-piercing prow of a warship.  I have been hunting for pictures.  All I can find, so far, is in Numiswiki, https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Rostra.  I checked all the Rome handbooks I had in the house and I'm looking for a guidebook to the Palazzo Massimo (the MNR now is at four locations, this being the largest) and I can't find one, one that goes gallery by gallery.  It just occurred to me to try the 11th Edition of the EB, but I think they were found after 1910.  Anyhow, just be searching 'rostral' I found the coin I couldn't find in Sear (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=60631.0) together with the modern one at Columbus Circle .  Some Republican asses show cruel butting weapons that would be belong the water line on the prow.  But I'd like to find pictures nearer life size, and I'd like to know what the MNR stuff I saw actually is.  Pat L.

[SC]

And what is the God of the Sea standing on?  Overall shape looks a bit like a galley prow but it seems to be too blobby.

Shawn 

[maridvnvm]

It looks like he is resting his foot on a Hippocamp to me.
Regards,
Martin

[maridvnvm]

I see now that I am looking at it the wrong way round and it is a dolphin facing left not a hippocamp and what I took to be the head of the horse is the tail of the dolphin. DOH!

Martin

[curtislclay]

Yes, a dolphin, quite clear and described as such on the Cologne specimen.

[Johnny]

This is turning out to be a very interesting thread,  and I thank you all for that

I also want to appologize for not posting the attribution in the original thread

the coin is

Billon tetradrachm 10.538g, 20.9mm Aug 269 - Aug 270 A.D
OBV :: AUT K KLAUDIOC CEB, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right
REV :: Poseidon standing left, right foot on a dolphin, grain ear in right, trident in left, L - B (year 2) across fields;
REF :: Dattari 5407, Milne 4252, Köln 3045, SRCV III 11414, Emmett 3893, SNG Cop


I agree with all the conclusion so far ,  that is has to be a nautical/water related item in his hand,  but  still at a loss as to what it is.

 from Claudius II
minted in alexandria
has Poseidon on reverse....there was no conflict during Claudius's  reign in Egypt, so would not refer to sea battle I assume. however  Poseidon  holding a trophy makes sense....  could the item could refer to a drought,  a flood, ?

LOL  time to finish my time machine,  and go find out from the source

here are some close ups of the item in question  and of the dolphin,  hopefully  they will help solve this mystery

this could be anything,  ARRRGGHHHHH ( loosing more hair  LOL  )

but  I do that you all for fantastic replies

[Enodia]

i agree that this is most likely a nautical item, and Pat's suggestion of a ram seems to hold water (pun very much intended    ). the dolphin also points to an overall  nautical theme, but if we're not yet convinced and still wondering then let's not dismiss Poseidon's other attributes... earthshaker, horses, etc.

of course those examples will hardly fit here, but the point is that Poseidon was not just the god of the sea and that there are other places to look.

~ Peter

[Johnny]

That's a really good point Peter


here's an excerp from   theoi.com


Being the ruler of the sea (the Mediterranean), he is described as gathering clouds and calling forth storms, but at the same he has it in his power to grant a successful voyage and save those who are in danger, and all other marine divinities are subject to him. As the sea surrounds and holds the earth, he himself is described as the god who holds the earth (gaiêochos), and who has it in his power to shake the earth (enosichthôn, kinêtêr gas).
 
 
He was further regarded as the creator of the horse, and was accordingly believed to have taught men the art of managing horses by the bridle, and to have been the originator and protector of horse races. (Hom. Il. xxiii. 307, 584; Pind. Pyth. vi.50 ; Soph. Oed. Col. 712, &c.) Hence he was also represented on horseback, or riding in a chariot drawn by two or four horses, and is designated by the epithets hippios, hippeios, or hippios anax. (Paus. i. 30. § 4, viii. 25. § 5, vi. 20. § 8, viii. 37. § 7 ; Eurip. Phoen. 1707; comp. Liv. i. 9, where he is called equester.) In consequence of his connection with the horse, he was regarded as the friend of charioteers (Pind. Ol. i. 63, &c.; Tzetz. ad Lyc. 156), and he even metamorphosed himself into a horse, for the purpose of deceiving Demeter.
 

I'm gonna figure this out if it takes me a year

[SC]

IF he were holding grain, and there appears to be some doubt, one possible interpretation could be that Poseidon has tamed the seas to allow the grain deliveries to Rome.  Any indication in the historical sources of difficulties with grain delivery then?  Bad storms?

On another note who controlled Alexandria in August 269 - August 270?  When did Vabalathus and mother Z exercise control over Egypt?

Shawn

[Johnny]

Excellent point Shawn.  the timeline reflects the same time period that Mother Z  as you called her and her son Vabalathus had invaded Egypt,  or were just about to do so


excerpt from [BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

268 Murder of Gallienus, Claudius Gothicus new emperor

late 269 or early 270 Zenobia invades Egypt and Palestine, holds against armies sent by Claudius

270 Zenobia expands territories to include eastern Asia Minor

270 Claudius dies of plague, Quintillus briefly rules, Aurelian new emperor


this could be a representation of Alexandrians praying to Poseidon to halt the invading armies of Zenobia and Vabalathus,  and to crush the enemy ships  (  "grain" could be a ship being  crushed in Poseidon's hand ) .

 It should be asking  for Claudius II to prevail,  If it was for Vabalathus  and mother Z it  would have images  on the coin.

wow,  this quite interesting (  giving me gray hairs,  but  still interesting )

[SC]

V&Z did acknowledge Rome though.  The famous ant from Antioch, which I think dates to circa 271, has Vabalathus on one side and Aurelian on the other.  Given that the mint mark is in the exergue under Aurelian's portrait it is usually agreed that Aurelian is therefore on the reverse and Vabalathus on the obverse.

I just wonder if there is more timing known in any soruces regarding the Palmyrene invasion of Egypt??

Hard to see the Alexandrian mint officials issuing coins with Claudius' portrait while Vabalathus and Zenobia controlled the city unless with their permission.

So is the coin from before their invasion of Egypt?

Or while under their control, acknowledging Claudius, with some symbol of their supremacy?

Or while under their control but with a covert pro-Claudius message by mint officials?

Or during their invasion, with a message like you propose, but before they took Alexandia?

Or, sadly, is it a case where we will never know.

On a related note I remeber seeing somewhere recently about the release of a new history of the Roman navy.  I think a book published in UK.

Shawn

[Johnny]

Thanks Shawn

Unfortunately,  there is limited resources available to try to figure this out. ( that I can find at least)

I still believe that this coin was pre-invasion..if it was not,  then why Poseidon on the reverse ? Why reference to the sea ?  Invasion by sea of the The Palmyrene Empire to Alexandria would make sense,  but how did they invade,  land or sea  ?

unless there was an earthquake,  volcanic eruption, drought,  flood or something else to get Poseidon involved

ARRGGHHH   I need a time machine,  will someone built me one  LOL

anyone know of any references to this time period ? 

[Volodya]

I see Poseidon holding a conch shell, engraved by someone who's never seen a real one, and thinks they come with handles...

Phil Davis

[moonmoth]

Well, here's another example from acsearch.  The "grain ear" looks more like grain and less like a conch chell on this one.

It looke like one solid object, but that might just be because it is not easy to show a grain ear's whiskers on low resolution coins like these.  But I can see why Milne calls it a sword, expecially on the original specimen above where it seems to have a hilt guard.

Bill

[Joe Sermarini]

I really don't think it is a grain ear. 

[Johnny]

Thanks for posting that pic Bill

I keep forgetting about that site,  and was having a hard time finding other images

Cheers

@ Joe,  that notify feature you have set up in the catalog is great 

[Abu Galyon]

Given the way in which Roman-Egyptian art often mixes divine atributes, I wonder if it could be a nilometer?

Bill R

[*Alex]

I am sure Abu Galyon is correct in saying that the object is a Nilometer. I have shown the nilometer hieroglyph (tat) below together with a sketch of a Nilometer courtesy of Rice University which makes this explanation seem pretty convincing. Anyway, to me, it is either that or a kebab. 

Alex.

[curtislclay]

New ideas are always welcome, but I'm not convinced!

Neptune, as far as I know, has nothing to do with the flooding of the Nile, and a Nilometer seems too large an object to be depicted as an attribute held in one hand.

[*Alex]

And what about syncretism which was a commonplace in the Roman world. i.e. Nilus = water; Neptune = water so a Neptune with an attribution of Nilus should not come as a surprise.

I don't know that size or weight much comes into it where symbolism and the gods are concerned..... 


Alex.

[curtislclay]

Again, I'm not convinced.

Even a god needs two hands to carry a boat!

A Nilometer should logically be held under one of your arms, not in a single hand.

Plus, my major objection was that Nilus, not Neptune, is the god obviously connected with the Nile flood, and for whom a Nilometer was a fitting attribute.

[Johnny]