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Author Topic: constantine and christianity  (Read 10708 times)

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AncientCoins

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constantine and christianity
« on: January 12, 2006, 03:22:56 pm »
hello all, i have a question.  we all know that constantine is known for bring christianity into the roman empire.  if the empire was christian, why are their pagan gods still pictured on the coins?  did they believe in christianity AND paganism????

andrew

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2006, 03:40:20 pm »
It isn't 'they' that believe, it is individuals who have beliefs.  When Constantine called the Council at Nicaea, etc., he was making state policy.  A lot had been going on in a lot of individuals and groups of individuals and would continue to go on while Christianity was made, first, the official religion and later the official sole religion.  Such changes do affect the coinage, to be sure, but what emperor would eliminate gods that had become virtual personifications and personifications that had become virtual gods, such as Mars, Genius x, and Victoria?
This is a rather simple-minded answer.  The history was much more complex.  Pat L.

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2006, 07:02:15 pm »
   My thoughts......The Christians were well established in the empire by the 4th century regardless of Constantine who as a pragmatist wanted to use them for social purposes that his own government did not/could not address very well. When he attended the Council of Nicea, he undoubtedly had an interest in which faction was going to win out as the mainline sect because it would determine which one would receive his support to serve his own purposes.  As far as his coinage is concerned, he consistantly opted for themes that were Roman traditional and show a decisive evolution of preference to Roman deities.  After his death, his sons were a completely different matter!!
Bob

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2006, 09:17:41 am »
Andrew,
The empire has been estimated to have been approx. 10% Christian by the time Constantine came to power (weighted towards the East), and probably didn't change too drastically during his reign. Constantine's contribution can better be understood as bringing state support and political power to Christianity, rather than masses of converts. Author Ramsay McMullen (one of the experts on the era) has written a book about the transition between Paganism and Christianity in the 4th-8th centuries, so you also have to understand that this was a gradual process.

We do see the pagan gods disappearing from Constantine's coinage during his reign. Sol was really the last pagan god to appear (he disappeared from the coinage around 326). We see Victory after that, but she was apparently seen more for her symbolism than as associated with paganism. The religious themes on Constantine's coinage are probably better regarded as a reflection of his own shifting beliefs than those of the predominately pagan empire, although politics (support of his constituency) will also have played a role.

As far as overlapping/transitioning beliefs, that was certainly the case, both for the population as a whole (e.g. people are recorded as turning to pray to the sun on the way into church!) as well as likely for Constantine himself, but the coinage still does show a sharp change during Constantine's reign.

Any day now ( ::)) I'll be building a web site to present Constantine's coinage and this precise topic!

Ben

vic9128

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2006, 10:47:32 am »
Here is a favorite quote of mine from Barthold Georg Niebuhr about Constantine:

"He was a superstitious man, and mixed up his Christian religion with all kinds of absurb superstitions and opinions."


my page on Christian symbolism on bronze coins of Constantine:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Massanutten

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2006, 12:01:13 pm »
   Super page Victor!!  When I claimed there was no Constantine coins with a Christian theme I was thinking of the Constantius II coin with the large Chi Rho on the reverse.  I still think I am correct that Constantine's coins were pagan or Roman in their overall theme, even if secondary Christian symbols were added into them in his later reign.  ???
Bob

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2006, 12:13:09 pm »
I think that is pretty much right Bob. Constantine continued to use traditional Roman themes even after pagan gods were no longer represented. We can not even be sure of the context of the chi-rho on the SPES PVBLIC, which came to be closely associated with Christianity. This process , pagan to Christian symbolism, is a gradual change over time.

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2006, 03:35:54 pm »
There's nothing from Constantine I which is explicitly Christian. He used the SOLI INVICTO COMITI reverse a great deal during the earlier part of his reign, and later types which were religiously ambiguous and presumably wouldn't alienate either Christian or Pagan.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2006, 10:47:07 pm »
One of the hallmarks of the Roman Empire was that it did not-or rarely prohibited religions in the areas they controlled-unless the local population refused to include either the emperor in it's pantheon at least by lip service,  or didn't tolerate the roman pantheon in their areas. 
Christians and Jews were often persecuted not because they believed in some variant of Christianity or Judiasim, but because they refused to include the worship of the emperor (either living or deceased) as some form of a god.
Constantine did not abolish the paganisim that was the norm because from his viewpoint in history, Christanity was new and untested and  no matter what he believed, it just wasn't done. Numerous religions flourished in Rome itself with no edicts or pogroms for most of the Roman Empire
As we all know Christanity itself incorporated all sorts of pagan holidays into the Christian calendar which undoubtedly helped its acceptance.  I don't recall the "yule log" in any early Christian writings-but much later it became part of the northern european tradition of celebrating the birthday of Christ.
Constantine, for whatever forever lost reasons including winning the famous battle with the help of Christ, simply continued a tradition of gradual change and tolerance-including the minting of coins.

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2006, 10:59:45 pm »
Constantine did not abolish the paganisim that was the norm because from his viewpoint in history

Constantine was initially tolerant of pagans until after the second civil war; "Now at last, with the Empire safely reunited under his authority, Constantine could afford to come out into the open. There must be no coercion: pagans must be allowed to continue in the old faith if they chose to do so." (pg eight) But this tolerance did not stop him from shutting down pagan temples, "Between 331 and 334 Constantine had closed down all pagan temples in the Empire." (pg 16)



Norwich, John Julius. A Short History of Byzantium. Knopf, 1997.

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2006, 01:27:39 am »


He did close some temples for specific reasons, but he also approved of at least one new one being built. For that matter he also closed some churches - of Christian sects that he didn't approve of.

Ben

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2006, 02:07:57 pm »
BenB figured out  10% of Christians between the population of the empire. Did you  understnd that this figure is
enormous? It was a consolidated movement, a kind of a totalitarian organization against a liberal paganism with
a plethora of local gods. I hardly believe that there were friendly relations between priests of different
 Roman temples.  The conversion was a very clever political step. Finally, the Christians who refused worship to emperors
accepted the idea that their  power came from the God.

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2006, 06:54:40 pm »
Constantine would certainly have found it useful to support the Christians during the Licinian Wars since Licinius didn't treat them well, and he could pose as a potential protector. From what I've been able to discover, the imperial cult didn't change much; the church had already moved a long way towards an acommodation with the empire. It was run by the administrative class, it organised itself in much the same way as the empire, very large parts of it were willing to recieve back people, even bishops, who'd sacrificed or handed over the scriptures for burning during the Great Persecution. There wasn''t really any reason to ban it any more, and Constantine's father may well have realised this, since he did very little about implementing the persecution. Constantine just took it a stage further.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2006, 09:56:44 pm »
Very interesting discussion.  Here are some figures about the population of Christians in the empire from Rodney Stark based on sociometric data.  Until 150 CE the Christians were 0.07% of the population.  From 150-250 CE Christians increased to 1.9% of the population.  It was as noted above 10.5 % by 300 CE.  What is interesting is that Stark's data suggests that Christians were 56.5% of the population by 350 CE.  If the general population of the Roman Empire was 60 million, then there were 7,500 Christians by 100 CE, 40,000 by 150 CE and 1 million by 250 CE.   By the year 300 there would be over 6 million Christians.  In the year 350 CE, there would be over 30 million Christians. 

It has been my understanding that paganism (although that term may be anachronistic)  hung on for a great while, especially in the rural areas.  The population in rural areas, generally but not every where, seems to be conservative in nature and hold on "to the old ways."  It might be difficult to close down all the shines and to prohibit rituals in the rural areas.  I am thinking of a contemporary analogy in rural areas of the United States where the Christian practice of prayer is regularly carried on in school classes, school meetings, and high school football games even though it may bridge the wall of separation between church and state.  But people in a small town with a dominate religious tradition may continue the practice no matter what is legislated.

David 

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2006, 02:52:35 am »
Very likely the crisis in the empire from the 250's onward led to a decline in traditional realigion (why weren't the gods helping them?) and a search for something better among all the various imported sects. Christianity by that time was sufficiently well adapted to the Roman culture, and sufficiently similar to existing cults, to gain wide acceptance. At the same time, the emperors doubtless had better things to do than persecuting it.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2006, 07:54:27 am »
Very interesting discussion.  Here are some figures about the population of Christians in the empire from Rodney Stark based on sociometric data.  Until 150 CE the Christians were 0.07% of the population.  From 150-250 CE Christians increased to 1.9% of the population.  It was as noted above 10.5 % by 300 CE.  What is interesting is that Stark's data suggests that Christians were 56.5% of the population by 350 CE.

Hi David,

I had only come across the 10% figure in isolation from a different source (Drake's "Constantine and the Bishops", which I'm currently reading), which I see now includes Stark as a reference.

That growth rate, if true, is staggering. What's notable from those figures is that it increased by 500% both in the 50 years prior to 300, and 500% in the 50 years following. I've just ordered a copy of Stark's "Rise of Chrisianity..." from Amazon, and I see that one reader's feedback also notes that (as the numbers imply) Stark's analysis does not depend on Constantine (nor on mass conversion). There's also a modern parallel for differential growth rates of religion based on social factors rather than religious ones, although sadly such discussion ist verboten here.

It seems that this growth rate has been ignored by most Constantine biographers (which base their works mostly on the known history rather than analytically derived data such as this), since it seems to demand a major reevaluation of Constantine - the dog being wagged by the tail... Constantine skillfully taking advantage of this phenomenal growth rate rather than having much to do with it (other than providing after-the-fact institutional support for it).

I'll be very interested to read Stark's book.

Ben

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2006, 04:44:47 pm »
I first came across that view in a first-year university textbook back in the mid-80's, and it was far from new then! The statistics are interesting though, if unsurprising. I've been convinced for many years that the rapprochement between the church and the state had been going on for so long, and gone so far, that if Constantine hadn't legalised it, someone else soon would have. There simply was no remaining reason for persecution.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2006, 05:41:35 pm »
Robert, are there any biographies of Constantine that you're aware of that are written from this stance? I've read the view that he took advantage of the church rather than being sincere (which I disagree with), but not the suggestion that the explosive growth that happened to be occuring during his reign (and had preceded it) made him what might be considered an "accidental hero" for realizing that he had little choice but to support it (which he did skillfully) rather than fight it (which he'd seen fail).

One fact that has struck me as interesting is why St. Jerome's chronicle doesn't at least give some minor acknowledgment of Constantine's role in the support and growth of the religion (St. Jerome notes the end of the persecutions, but doesn't as I recall say much else about Constantine, other than criticising him for the death of Fausta & Crispus).  St. Jerome's lack of praise of Constantine could have been just a result of theological differences, but it seems that a major role in the fortunes of the church would still have warranted acknowledgement... perhaps at the time (not true today, of course), Constantine wasn't widely seen (notwithstanding Eusebius) has having contributed much - the religion's growth itself was the big story, and not of his doing?!

Ben


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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2006, 06:27:18 pm »
I doubt whether you'd find it in a biography of Constantine so much as a history of the church. I remember writing an essay in which I argued that, if there was an identifiable turning point at all, it was probably Clement of Alexandria's apologia for wealthy Christians, written at the end of the 2nd Century. What I can't do is remember the sources I used, since it was twenty years ago and I no longer have it. According to Eusebius, Gallienus issued at least a partial edict of toleration, but the details in the letter to the bishops he includes are vague. After the defeat of Zenobia by Aurelian, the church appealed to the emperor for the return of ecclesiastical property held by Paul of Samosata, a heretic she'd favoured, and won. One thing I haven't, unfortunately, come across is a history of the church which really sets it in the context of the wider history; how far was the temporary cessation of persecution in the 3rd Century a consequence of the near collapse of the empire, for instance? I strongly suspect that it was, but I 'd like to know for sure.

When it comes to the Great Persecution, Diocletian persecuted the Manichees, apparently as a result of an appeal against them. Galerius was pressurised by his mother, a devout pagan, to persecute Christians, and in turn pressurised Diocletian, who only wanted to forbid the court and the army to practice the faith. This was despite an earlier incident when he had consulted the omens and recieved no reply, allegedly because Christians present had made the sign of the Cross. Dio eventually consulted Apollo of Miletus, who gave the inevitable reply in support of persecution, and gave way. It sounds to me as though there was probably a good deal of to-ing and fro-ing within the court over this, with the supporters of traditional paganism attacking what we might term the 'new faiths' like Manicheeinsm and Christianity, which they inevitably perceived as a threat. Eventually the inevitable happened, as the old paganism lost ground, and the emperors came to see that teh church offered no threat to them at all.

It's been a very long time since I did much reading in church history, and I need to get back to it. There has to be something decent on this out there somewhere!
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2006, 05:15:48 pm »
Robert,
I'm currently reading a book "Constantine and the Bishops: The Politics of Intolerance" by H.A. Drake that I'd heartily recomend despite only being part way through it (100pg into a book of 500pg body + 100pg of notes & bibliography). The second part of the title is really a bit misleading, as that's really not the focus of the book (so far at least). It's more in general about the state of Christianity (in particular as an organization/movement) at that time, and of the role of emperor (who at that time derived much of his perceived authority from divine patronage and representation rather than the senate as had traditionally been the case), and the interaction between the two.

The major point of view of the book is to avoid a simplistic "Constantine the rational actor vs the monolithic organization the church" view and instead get into the more complicated reality of what the church was at that time (a not very homogenous collection of Bishops and their constituencies) and what this dynamic relationship must have looked like (with Constantine necessarily not always in control). A major strength of the book is that leads into the topic with sufficient history of that stage of the empire (including the persecutions and reliefs) that Constantine's actions make much more sense as the logical actions of anyone at that time, rather than having to rely on any extraordinary personal quirks of character or conviction to explain them - it'll resonate if you have a more gradualist view of Constantine and the rise of Christianity (as I think we both do).

Ben

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2006, 06:08:27 pm »
I certainly do. I don't think we're talking about a sudden change, rather an evolutionary one, and you're right in saying that there was no real unity in the church; the subsequent to-ing and fro-ing between Orthodox and Arian alone should be sufficient evidence of that.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2006, 12:11:06 am »
This may be an unpopular post, or more likely on this website, ignored.  Constantine won a battle.  Ancients often attribued things to supernatural powers. "Hey...that Christian thing...mmm..it may work."
Constantine: Err on the side of caution. It may have been my warriors...it may have been that ...Christian thing.....So...straddle the fence... keep the warriors and if mom brings back a memmento of that Christ guy..who would challenge Mom....make it into a bridle for my prized horse"...This is legend but is so apporpriate that I feel there is truth in it.  Constantine was raised in the pagan world with lots of fanfare bout this new religion...odd ..since it said all that stuff bout turn the other cheek...but he didn't hear that or ignored it....mom talks bout that wussy stuff anyway.  But I do listen to Mom...and I did win the battle so ok...Jupiter didn't do squat for me...and hell it's been 150 years since he was tops anyway...mmmm...maybe this christ magic works.  And it did...fablously...he consolidaed the empire....established a new center of the roman empire (far away from the goths and vandals) they became the problem of a ...province  of the new Rome.
One of his decentants Constantius II..a ruler of Constantinople decreed that "when a calamity of the recent sort that plauged the ancient Flavian Amphtheater in the form of lightining from the sky occurs, a detailed report is to be carried henceforth to our emminece"

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2006, 06:04:46 am »
I certainly do. I don't think we're talking about a sudden change, rather an evolutionary one, and you're right in saying that there was no real unity in the church; the subsequent to-ing and fro-ing between Orthodox and Arian alone should be sufficient evidence of that.

Indeed. With all those diverse branches,  the orthodox view, Christian gnosticism, Marcion, Arianism, the Christologies etc. Then the persecutions, initially sporadic then later more systematic, the history of the early Christian church never ceases to amaze me, not least of all how it wasn't just nipped in the bud pre-Nicaea. :)

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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2006, 04:56:32 pm »
There was no widely organised persecution before Diocletian that anyone knows of, and probably no effective mechanism for organising one. It was all down to the provincial governor; Pliny the Younger, for instance, may well have had a complaint that the Christians were takling people away from the temples, and responded with his persecution. But while he seems to have heard of the name, he had very little idea what a Christian was, and had to torture some women to find out. He persecuted them under general legislation against secret societies, suggesting that in Trajan's reign there was no specific anti-Christian legislation. Valerian I legislated against it, but from what we know of his rescript, he was only concerned about Equites and above, along with priests, bishops and deacons. Ordinary Christians weren't affected as far as we know. His legislation appears to have been repealed by Gallienus. That wouldn't annihilate any healthy movement. There was a long period when the church flourished in peace, and by Diocletian's time, it seems to have been too strong to be just wiped out. The persecution wasn't consistent; Galerius and Max Daia were keen persecutors, while Constantius I did almost nothing, and the whole thing looks like a response to pressure from the pagan establishment. The persecution was aimed at property, and at forcing people to hand over the holy books, and sacrifice to the emperor. Many submitted to this and just went underground, then we-emerged when it was all  safely over, leading to an immense furore over whether those who had sacrificed or handed over the scriptures should be re-admitted to the church, and if so, on what terms.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2006, 04:09:52 am »
Constantine was not a "Christian convert" in any traditional sense.  He was not baptized until close to death, and while that was not an uncommon practice, the mention of Christ in his speeches and decrees is conspicuous by its absence.  Eusebius, Church historian and Constantine biographer, is responsible for much of the valorization of Constantine as the Christian Emperor.  The somnambulant "sign" in which Constantine was to become victor at the Milvian Bridge is, not so surprisingly, revealed to posterity long after the "fact."  Throughout his reign, Constantine continues to portray himself on coins as a sun god.  Above all, Constantine was a pragmatist. It would be cynical to egregiously disavow his commitment to Christianity, but it would be equally wrong to think that he would allow Christianity to meddle in the governance of his empire.  As he reputedly told a group of bishops, "You are bishops of those within the church, but I am perhaps a bishop appointed by God of those outside."  Whatever the motives for his decision to support Christianity, Christianity benefitted from the arrangement.  So, too, did Constantine.  It was a match made in heaven.
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2006, 01:14:48 pm »
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2006, 06:00:02 pm »

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Re: constantine and christianity
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2006, 02:46:25 am »
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2006, 02:24:57 pm »
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2006, 02:45:42 pm »
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 05:38:46 pm »
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Re: constantine and christianity
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2006, 11:08:50 am »
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Re: constantine and christianity
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2006, 07:59:27 pm »
Robert Brenchley

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