King Tutankhamun

[Noah]

Here is the article:

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/egypt-unveils-king-tuts-mummy/20071104085709990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Best, Noah

[Jay GT4]

Some people dislike Dr. Hawass but I really like him, he doens't hold back blaming the "British" or "French" for stealing treasures and mutilating the mummies.  He knows how to play it up for the press and sometimes he  goes overboard but I'm glad Egypt has a strong presence now for controlling and preserving it's heritage.

 I watched the documentary the other night on National Geographic channel about the CT scan.  It was very interesting to see the extent of the damage and to re-construct the leg injury.  Too bad (or maybe it's for the best) that most Roman's were cremated, imagine how much more we could learn...I found it interesting though when they forensically reconstructed King Tut's face from the CT scans.  They made him very "white" in skin tone and even gave him a very distinct "white" pointy nose.  From Egyptian sculpture and art they ancients were clearly a "darker" people and Tut's own funerary mask shows a much wider nose then the one "reconstructed" for the documentary.  Comments?

[Robert_Brenchley]

He could have had a narrow nose coupled with dark skin, or even have been light-skinned; the Egyptians portrayed themselves as having a pretty wide variation in skin colour. Does anyone know whether it's still possible to tell what shade a mummified body was? I'm well aware that there are still people who get hot under the collar at the idea that the Egyprians weren't white, but hopefully Egyptology's got past that stage by this time.

[mwilson603]

He could have had a narrow nose coupled with dark skin, or even have been light-skinned; the Egyptians portrayed themselves as having a pretty wide variation in skin colour. Does anyone know whether it's still possible to tell what shade a mummified body was? I'm well aware that there are still people who get hot under the collar at the idea that the Egyprians weren't white, but hopefully Egyptology's got past that stage by this time.

I would have thought that analysis of the skin tissue could give a clue as I believe that the levels of melanin can still be detected in a preserved corpse.  Even when not preserved very well it is still possible to see moles on a corpse's skin, and as these are essentially collections of melanin I am assuming that some detectable trace must be present in King Tut's epidermal layer. (Although not being a forensic scientist, I could be wrong.)
Whether that would compare to what we see today as skin colour is up for debate.  There is now a known condition called Industrial Melanism, where animals, birds and Insects living in industrialised regions accumulate more melanin and subsequently become darker.  In some cases some insects have become almost black.  This is believed to make them harder to detect in dirty industrial environments, and to provide them with a degree of protection against the pollution they live in, however why this is so remains unexplained.  It is feasible therefore that in the industrialised world most of us live in, even the paler skinned races are darker than they were back in the days of King Tut, as there is no reason to assume that industrial melanism doesn't also affect us.

[Robert_Brenchley]

It's a specific adaptation which only appears in areas with sooty atmospheres, in species which need to camouflage themselves. The classic example is the pepper moth in the UK, and since we got rid of the sooty chimneys, the light coloured variant has become the commoner once again. There's no reason to assume it would affect humans.

[mwilson603]

There's no reason to assume it would affect humans.

I live in the north of England now, and can see a nice coal burning power station from my house.  I am sure that I have a much better tan than I used to have! 

[gordian_guy]

Living as we do in a me-centric, PC world I am not surprised that a character like Dr. Hawass slams the very countries that brought his country's past to the world and to the Egyptians themselves. Before the British and the French Egyptian artifacts held no more interest to the Egyptians than as a way of making money - albeit to feed their families or drown them under the waters of a dam created lake (BTW it was an international group, including French and British - that saved the sites in the way of the waters of the dam's lake) Had it not been for the British, Egyptian antiquities police might be running around the world, like the Italian's and Greeks, chasing down King Tut artifacts in private and public museums, because it would have only been a matter of time before that tomb too, would have been found and looted. It was a French man who deciphered the hieroglyphics

The last couple of years every show I have seen about Egypt has for some reason to have an appearance by Dr. Hawass. Comic relief I guess, because most of the relevant historical and archaeological information being passed along seems to come from - hey a foreigner from Britain!!

That being said, I agree that he has done much to popularize Egyptian history for the masses - mostly his own people. I have a book that he is nominally the author of - a National Geographic book that goes with the exhibit that was traveling around this country that I was lucky enough to see in Chicago last August. Kenneth Garrett's photos are the heart of the book though.

c.rhodes

[Noah]

I'm well aware that there are still people who get hot under the collar at the idea that the Egyprians weren't white, but hopefully Egyptology's got past that stage by this time.
[/quote

The Ptolemy dynasty was "white" indeed, but is seems that the Egyptian dynasties previous to Alexander's conquest would have been led by pharaohs with darker complexions closer to semitic than caucasion.  I wonder why people still get in a twist about this subject anymore.

Best, Noah

[Jay GT4]

I think people get in a "twist" because for so long "whites" have written the history books.  This world is so diverse and rich in culture and achievements and it's unfortunate that for so long it's been "white-washed".   

[gordian_guy]

I think people get in a "twist" because for so long "whites" have written the history books.  This world is so diverse and rich in culture and achievements and it's unfortunate that for so long it's been "white-washed".   

I disagree, this sadly naive statement best belongs on racebaiting.com This is after all the 21st century and such statements are more a reflection of the woefully medieval educational system that spawns them. It is a statement that one might hear in a Howard Zinn class - an individual that somehow tragically became a voice for such backward views.

History, like all fields of study, evolves and views change, by the same token "revisionism" is even less credible than the older more "Caucasian-centric" views. At least we can excuse the past generation of historians as being naive - can we say as much for the modern historians??

Skin color is a biological condition that no one can change - except for the tanning bed - and really has little or no significance to history when viewed with an unbiased eye.

c.rhodes

[slokind]

There are so many things I'd like to change that have contributed to limiting what I might have done.  But I cannot make up or make up for what wasn't done.  It doesn't matter that it wasn't my fault.  Similarly, we cannot re-create the languages lost through the absence of written records or their being lost.  Being equally and alike human beings does not mean that we equally possess recorded traditions or works of art in relatively permanent materials.  Having suffered in history does not necessarilty ennoble us or worsen us.  There are so many variables.
Back to my firrst sentence: My having not, perhaps, done what I might have done is not a reason for ignobly trying to put down or dismiss what others have been able to do.  So far as I understand, there are in fact times and places where peoples have produced what I cannot help but regard as exceptionally valuable to all humanity.  China and Greece are two that I have in mind, but so are India and Egypt.  No one is without bias, but I do not think it is only bias.  Jessie Norman and YoYo Ma and Barbara Hendricks have a perfect right, a human right, and reason too, to choose to concentrate in European music.  I agree that pigmentation has practically nothing to do with culture.  Diet and disease may be more significant.  But so many innate and environmental factors affect what people and groups of people do.
Honesty is all that is really important.  But serious honesty.  This is nothing to be contentious about.
This may be, if need be, deleted as off topic.  For that matter, so are the material remains of poor Tutankhamen off topic, in the first place.  Even if they were the material remains of Amernhotep III, a great pharaoh, they'd still be just remains.
It is 18th dynasty art that should inspire our interest and awe.  And skills.  That's what the Greeks thought, too.
Pat L.

[Jay GT4]

Race baiting?  Wow, that was a low blow.  I think if you view history like you said with an unbiased eye you would come to the conclusion that "whites" at least in the recent past have written a history that is biased towards those who are not white.  Examples?  Just look at the racism that infects America today and the complete lack of African history being taught in school.  All that is spoken of is the slave trade and how "good whites" faught to end slavery.  Patrick Henry is a patriot saying "Liberty or death" but Malcolm X is a racist for wanting the same thing for his people. 

[Noah]

Honesty is all that is really important.  But serious honesty.  This is nothing to be contentious about.
This may be, if need be, deleted as off topic.  For that matter, so are the material remains of poor Tutankhamen off topic, in the first place.  Even if they were the material remains of Amernhotep III, a great pharaoh, they'd still be just remains.
It is 18th dynasty art that should inspire our interest and awe.  And skills.  That's what the Greeks thought, too.
Pat L.

First, I do not think your comments are off topic at all.  You are making a statement that is completely fair and well written.  I do agree that in most cases human remains are not inspiring nor do they awe, but in the case of Egypt, I must protest to a degree.  No, they did not embalm the bodies to create art that was meant to inspire, yet in a way they do awe us since their techniques of preservation were intentional and deliberate, resounding the ever present desire of humankind...conquering death and achieving some kind of immortality.  Looking at the mummy of Tut (you are correct that he was not much of a historical figure by his own merit) demonstrates the skills of the embalmers of the period who perfected this art.

Best, Noah

[Robert_Brenchley]

Skin color is a biological condition that no one can change - except for the tanning bed - and really has little or no significance to history when viewed with an unbiased eye.
c.rhodes

Its irrelevant in any objective assessment of human beings, but unfortunately we made it highly relevant to the history of the last few centuries! When Edward Long published his 'History of Jamaica' in 1774, his comments about the mental and moral inferiority of black people (this is euphemistic, but I'm trying to be 'nice'), and his comparison between them and orang-utans, were intended to popularise ideas which could be used to justify plantation slavery. Unfortunately, this was picked up by apologists for British imperialism, and evolved into the idea that some races were biologically superior to others, hence the idea, for instance, that Africans were incapable of developing high levels of civilisation. We still live with the consquences of this nonsense today.

[adleer]

I read informative article about King Tut. Here it is http://famouspharaohs.blogspot.com/2007/10/tutankhamun-1334-1325-b.html

[yeshadette21]

Skin color is a biological condition that no one can change - except for the tanning bed - and really has little or no significance to history when viewed with an unbiased eye.

c.rhodes

I agree with that. Skin color no one can change, except tanning bed. Tanning bed however can change for a while but I think it will also go back to the original color. Especially, when you get stop on using that bed.