Author Topic: is this an Indian coin - bull & arabic? 1.36cm diametre, 0.38cm edge (Read 218 times)

Trudy B · « **on:** March 23, 2024, 12:18:09 am »

Hi, I hope someone can point me in the right direction.
I cannot seem to find a coin like the one pictured.
I've been told it's a Jittal (900-1300 AD) - but this may be wrong.
It's copper - again could be wrong.
I've tried reverse image search and translater but no luck. I have searched for coins with similar scripts and ended up on Indian coins. I can't find it or another like it.
Any help is appreciated.

mauseus · « **Reply #1 on:** March 23, 2024, 05:20:54 am »

Hi,

Yes, it's a jital. I think it is Mangubarni, 1220-1224 AD of the Khwarezm Shahs. The mint may be Naghada. The standard reference for jitals is Bob Tye's book and I think that this coin is Tye 295.

Regards,

Mauseus

Trudy B · « **Reply #2 on:** March 23, 2024, 06:34:29 am »

Mauseus!! Thank you. I have a place to start.

Jan P · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2024, 06:37:38 am »

Hello "mauseus",
Congratulations with the identification, but ...
Would it not be possible that you are mistaken in Tye number. I think, if you look at the text inside the bull, we have to do with Tye 294 here. At least, that is what Numista shows me.
What do you say?

Jan P · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2024, 06:58:37 am »

See underneath:

mauseus · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2024, 11:08:51 am »

Possibly, I'm away from my copy of Tye now until Tuesday. The ruler and regime is the same. I'll give it a look when I can.

Cheers,

Rich

Jan P · « **Reply #6 on:** March 23, 2024, 12:47:50 pm »

This is the identification I could find after "mauseus"' indications:

mauseus · « **Reply #7 on:** March 23, 2024, 01:29:34 pm »

Tye's put his plates from Jitals are on academia. edu.

https://www.academia.edu/356700/Jitals

Here's the relevant one for Khwarezm Shahs.

Cheers,

Rich

Jan P · « **Reply #8 on:** March 23, 2024, 05:29:13 pm »

So ... academia.edu and Numista are unanimous:

Tye 294 - Ala-al-din (alias Ala-ud-din) and Ghazna

mauseus · « **Reply #9 on:** March 23, 2024, 06:40:05 pm »

I was so close, lol.

Rich

Jan P · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2024, 06:40:03 am »

I try to understand what happened here ...
You found that this coin was a Khwarezm Shahs' piece. That was the big work, worth 90% of the totality of the identification.
Then you had those three glasses of whisky.
After that, you took a look for the ruler, the mint and the Tye-number (wrong, wrong and wrong!)

!!!!!
Must have been something like that, mauseus ... admit!

mauseus · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2024, 12:35:39 pm »

Lol, if only it hadn't been 9:30in the morning too. I must try harder with squiggles on coins 😎

Cheers!

Rich

Trudy B · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2024, 11:14:44 pm »

Thank you for your help, kindness, and understanding toward a rookie.
I didn't know where to start as I have no coin experience.

Trudy B · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2024, 01:46:04 am »

What is the significance of the bull on the coin?

Jan P · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2024, 07:21:10 am »

Hello Trudy,
The answer to your question, I do not know.
But I assume the "Jitals" of the Khwarezm Shahs were a following up of the Jitals of the Hindu Shahis, de famous Horseman & Bull Jitals.
One could expect a bull on a hindu coin, as there are religious reasons to. The bull Nandi was the mount of Shiva and in India the Nandi temples and shrines are countless.
With their arabic script, I doubt the Khwarezm Shahs had any religious reasons to put Nandi on their coins. Maybe the bull is just there to mark the coin as a "Jital".

Virgil H · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2024, 11:39:40 pm »

The Tye Jitals book is one I really want to find, but it is long out of print and expensive. The type catalog is useful, but not having the coin details is not ideal. That said, my understanding is that almost all the coins in his book are derivatives of the original "Bull and Horseman" coins of the Hindu Shahis of Kabul and Gandhara and the coin type became quite widespread and used for a few centuries. They also deteriorated over time as far as being able to tell if the image is a bull and/or horseman. They can become quite abstract. When I say "deteriorate," I don't mean it in a negative way. Over time, the resemblance to the originals is lost over the centuries, different religions, etc.

I have a few in my gallery.

Here is one of the Hindi Shahi coins: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=177029

Here is an example of a later derivative: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=183816

Cheers,
Virgil

Jan P · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2024, 04:42:56 am »

Same story with the Parthian "Sitting Archer", Virgil

.

Virgil H · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2024, 09:32:44 pm »

Jan P,
I am not so familiar with those, but I can see that. And, didn't those derive from earlier Persian coins?

Virgil

Jan P · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2024, 05:42:47 pm »

I do not think so, Virgil. The sitting archer is a characteristic Parthian design.
Look here: on this forum Kamaskires wrote an article on it:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=111425.0

Virgil H · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2024, 06:36:39 pm »

Thanks for the link, Jan!
Virgil

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Author Topic: is this an Indian coin - bull & arabic? 1.36cm diametre, 0.38cm edge (Read 218 times)