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Author Topic: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...  (Read 12759 times)

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Offline Noah

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Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« on: March 23, 2007, 11:32:46 pm »
I am starting this thread that may be ongoing because I would like help in identifying certain emperor busts or portraits.  I am sure there are others who could benefit from this as well.

Best, Noah

Offline Noah

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2007, 11:33:49 pm »
Is this Valentinian III or not?  Can anyone enlighten me on this please?

Best, Noah

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2007, 12:51:05 am »
who ever he is, he looks mean :)

Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2007, 01:30:11 am »
It would be helpful if, when known or ascertainable, we were given the location of the statue.  We may know it in quite different photos.  For example, is that the statue at Barletta?  Pat L.
Here it is.  Fritz Volbach followed Delbrueck's revised opinion and identified it as Marcian (450-467), saying "Comparison with the head in Milan and also the hair style make a date toward the middle of the 5th century the most probable".  But it has been dated all the way from Valentinian I to Carolingian.  It is bronze and colossal, originally about 16 feet tall (the legs it has now are not the original ones and are too short).  The head in Milan referred to also has been dated all over the map, but Volbach favors identifying her as Pulcheria, no surprise.  It is very much, I think, a matter of hair styles, and they make Stilicho and Serena look dainty and cuddly by comparison.  Note, though, that as a piece of hollow casting at a grand scale the Barletta statue is quite remarkable.

Eekcat is right; this belongs in History and Archaeology, doesn't it?  Or else, if it remains serious and solid, in Classical Numismatics, like the Moldavia and Wallachia and the Medallions threads?  Pat

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2007, 02:18:00 am »
I did not know where it was from, I got it off a page of roman emperors under Valentinian III

Am I to assume that the statue is in essence unidentified?

I have 2 more but again, I dont know where they are from, both were Identified as simply Licinius:




Offline LordBest

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2007, 04:21:58 am »
I have seen the collossal bronze attributed as Leo I-II as well, for similar stylistic reasons as Marcian. I did have a wonderful, very large full image of the statue for my website, but I cannot locate it at the moment.
                                                                  LordBest. 8)   

Edit: Found it, though I'm sure I hd a larger version somewhere...

Offline Noah

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2007, 09:01:15 am »
Sorry about posting this thread under COTD.  I was not paying attention.  BTW, I have one I would like to pass by you all.  Is this Maximian? As to location, I have no idea.  I just found this pic on the web.

Best, Noah

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2007, 11:42:20 am »
Great photo of that statue...shame they cant place who it is. You would think a statue like that...so big would have a dedication but since the lower part is not original it might have just been lost.

I have seen the above bust listed as maximianus on several websites...I have found that does not mean anything though...:)

Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2007, 02:17:22 pm »
Someone asked whether the Barletta statue was unfinished.  No.  But it must have been toppled and damaged at some time.  The tip of its falling cloak also is broken off at the level of the 'skirt'.  It was, of course, cast in sections, and the original legs went lost or in irreparable condition.
Pat L.

The porphyry head, confidently labeled Maximianus, without any note of what book or web page, let alone what museum, it comes from, is quite famous, but not in the basic textbooks.  It may take me some time to find it--the very same photo is all I know.  It is not necessarily one of the four tetrarchs; imperial porphyry statues and reliefs continue down to Justinian.

The confident labeling of anonymous (most) heads is pervasive in popular books, including a couple of Michael Grant's (he ought to have known better, but sometimes publishers want mug shots as a selling point, and sometimes the author doesn't even control what is used).  Besides, everyone wants to be cleverer than the last guy, and 'identifying' an anonymous statue might for a brief time earn you points.  All inscribed portraits' names need to be (at minimum) verified by epigraphers who have no vested interest. 

You see what happens when individual personality is banished in the Late Empire?  You are wanting to recapture a bit of individual personhood in these portraitsTheir culture is striving to eliminate that glamour.  We can, barely, tell the tetrarchs apart, but only on good coins and in the best portraits.  It is significant, therefore, that Justinian is easier to identify by his mugshot than most of his predecessors.  If in several hundred years no pemanent agreement has been reached for the Barletta statue, how can it mean very much to know which emperor it is?  Even poor Gallienus seems bent on showing more what he stands for and WHAT he wants to be than who he is or how you could recognize him if you met him in the street (or forum), but he wasn't intent on eliminating his personal self.
Pat L.
Eureka! It had got into my teaching files.
• J. Elsner, Imperial Rome and Christian Triumph (Oxford History of Art),  p. 63: "Monumental porphyry head of a tetrarch, from the SE baths, Romuliana (modern Gamizgrad in Serbia), c. AD 300.  Found in 1993, this crowned head (35 cm high) and ahand holding an orb (excavated in 1972) come from a statue likely to represent Galerius.  The crown is adorned with three gems and four busts, which probably signify the four members of the terarchy.  It is possible all all the porphyry sculptures made for the tetrarchs were carved in Egypt, where the stone was quarried and then exported around the empire.  The porphyry images are generally from imperial capitals or residences specifically associated with tetrarchic emperors." (as the Venice group, from the Philadelphion in Constantinople in AD 1204).
Addition: But the Thessaloniki Museum identifies this marble as Galerius: and Thessaloniki is where his own palace is, and his mausoleum.
• Thessaloniki, NAM Inv. 2462.  Portrait of one of the Tetrarchs, probably Galerius, whose palace, arch, and mausoleum are at Thessaloniki.
The marble bust is what I'd call a Portrait, as distinct from an Icon of the Empire under the Tetrarchy.

Offline *Alex

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2007, 07:24:32 pm »
Is this Valentinian III or not?  Can anyone enlighten me on this please?

Best, Noah

I personally, (and it seems my guess is as good as anyone's),  think that the facial features are strikingly similar to those of Valentinian I as shown on the AE1 from my collection below. The stern look and the shape of the face and eyes are to me very similar. Valentinian's exploits too, would make him a worthy candidate for a colossal statue.

Alex.


Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2007, 08:08:38 pm »
In the first half of the 20c, Valentinian I was the majority choice (Koch, Delbrueck, Rodenwalt).  It was only in his Kaiserporträts that Delbrueck came to favor Marcian.  The book (Volbach and Hirmer, ND on the Engl edit, but 1960s) where I found good photos is itself no longer the last word (but neither is the internet!). 
Anyone who wanted to write a publishable paper on the statue would have a lot a bibliographical research ("leg work") to do before beginning.  About a half century's worth.  I haven't done it.
Anyhow, a good place to begin is the Max Hirmer photographs.  Hirmer began in biology and never lost that conditioning.  One of his photos will never of itself sway you, and whatever can be seen he got.
So I ought to have posted the profile view right off the bat.  Pat L.

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2007, 08:12:05 pm »
If in several hundred years no pemanent agreement has been reached for the Barletta statue, how can it mean very much to know which emperor it is?

Not sure what you mean by that, I personaly think it means a lot to know who a statue is supposed to represent just like with a coin. LAter imperial coins often lack any characteristics of the real ruler but you still want to know whose coin it is. It all goes into tying together the art of the age and the man. I assume that unless they locate something that possitively identifies that statue all one can do is make a guess and I would not use it on any specific page to illustrate a specific emperor unless it is positively identified.

As for posting images without reference, if I had a reference I would post them, as it is, as I I said, I got it from a page that used it as a photo to illustrated Valentian, it was also on another valentinian page with a (?) next to the attribution, nothing about the page would have given a clue to who it was...I wondered about it because of the question mark next to the attribution on one page.

As for this Bust:



It is credited to the National Museum of Archaeology (upon searching there are many museums with this name)...one hint might be that it is titled: Licinius Sura.Garnisonskommandant but I cannot find any more info on it. Is this the Lucius Licinius Sura mentioned in Dio during the time of Trajan?:



again, the only page I have found it on was a page with this photo and a bio of the emperor Licinius...it doesnt say where it is but it resembles the one above...is this also Licinius Sura and NOT the emperor Licinius? I can only find it on that one page and cant confirm it.

http://www.helsinki.fi/jarj/symposion/museo//licinius.htm

I think the top bust is Licinius Sura, not sure about the bottom one...

BTW, where did you get those photos of the 'Barletta' statue

Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2007, 08:42:04 pm »
Where did I get...?
Volbach, Wolfgang Fritz (1892-1988)and Hirmer, Max, Early Christian Art (Abrams, [1962]).  The original title was, again, Früchristliche Kunst, and I'll look in LOC for you to get the copyright date (lacking which, I was embarrassed to try to cite more than the author).  Hirmer was a famous photographer and publisher; he also published a bit in his own name on numismatics.  The famous picture books on Greek Coins (in German by Franke, in English a new text by Kraay) and Roman Coins (by Kent), which I was so fortunate as to buy when they were new (now very expensive) are Hirmer Verlag, Munich, originally.  I have the British Thames & Hudson for Kent (because I got it at the BM bookshop) and the US Abrams (because I bought it secondhand in Berkeley) for Kraay.  There is also a delightful small book, Römische Kaiserporträts im Münzbild (Munich, 1961) by Max Hirmer in his own name, which I found at the Antikensammlung in Munich.  The emperors considered so far in this thread are not in it, and in the Kent book they tend to be represented in gold, which is not very helpful.
Pat
LOC put the date in brackets, because not actually printed in the book.  They don't have the German edition, which might be a year earlier.

Yes, Licinius Sura was Trajanic.  I'm checking on the high-relief portrait, because I don't want to guess, but it MIGHT be one of the heads on the "five columns monument" in the Forum Romanum.
Seems not.  Possibly one of the re-cut heads in the hunt roundels in the Arch of Constantine?  I can't get a link to work to the grayscale image DruMax posted.

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 08:45:00 pm »
okay...thanks...I was wondering if they were from an online source or a book.

Offline *Alex

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 09:50:50 pm »
Hi Pat,

Although nobody knows for sure, I think Delbrueck was probably right the first time. Your profile of the statue hasn't swayed me away from Valentinian I in my own mind.


Alex.


Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2007, 10:11:25 pm »
Well, I have found a lot of info now that I have the name of the town...it seems that the main contenders are Valentinian and Marcian with a few others thrown in as below Heraclius, Theodosius II, Honorius, and Leo

The Colossus of Barletta is a large bronze statue of an Eastern Roman emperor, more than twice life size (5.11 meters) and currently erected in Barletta, Italy.

 
A legend says the statue washed up on a shore, after a Venetian ship sank returning from the sack of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade (1204 AD), and that it represents Emperor Heraclius (reign 610-641 AD). Modern scholars think the statue should represent Theodosius II (reign 408-450 AD), even if Honorius (reign 393-423 AD) has been also proposed with some success. An emperor is clearly depicted, identifiable from his imperial diadem and his commanding gesture that invokes the act of delivering a speech, with his right arm raised, now holding a cross, but probably originally wielding a labarum. The emperor wears a cuirass under his short tunic. His cloak is draped over his left arm in a portrait convention that goes back to Augustus. In his outstretched left hand he now holds an orb. His diademed head wears a Gothic jewel, similar to the one worn by Aelia Eudoxia, mother of Theodosius II.

and another source:

In front of the church of San Sepolcro in Barletta is a bronze statue, over 5m/16ft high, of a Byzantine emperor (perhaps Valentinian I; d. 375), the finest piece of colossal sculpture in bronze from ancient times. The Venetians brought it back from Constantinople to Italy in the 13th century and left it after a shipwreck on the beach of Barletta.

I think it is safe to say, nobody knows :) They just found it.

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2007, 10:35:48 pm »
   
      A most interesting thread – particularly at present the discussion and question regarding this ‘Barletta’ statue.
 
  I can’t help but to comment that I think Alex’s juxtaposed portraits are brilliant!
  I sure see the close resemblance.
  If it’s not Valentinian I, the similarity of facial features is uncanny.
 
 
     
 
     
  Best,
  Tia
 
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Offline Noah

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2007, 12:18:38 am »
The porphyry head, confidently labeled Maximianus, without any note of what book or web page, let alone what museum, it comes from, is quite famous, but not in the basic textbooks.  It may take me some time to find it--the very same photo is all I know.  It is not necessarily one of the four tetrarchs; imperial porphyry statue and reliefs continue down to Justinian.

So, is there a known bust of Maximian anywhere?  I have seen various Galerius busts, and this one, if in fact it is, isn't among the nicer ones.

Best, Noah

Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 01:29:33 am »
As I searched for that high-relief head of Licinius, I, too, noticed heads labeled Galerius, all looking different from each other.  I think that the marble one in the Thessaloniki musuem, found in or near his very palace and closely resembling his less 'tetrarchic' bronze coins, deserves special consideration.
Pat L.

Offline Noah

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 09:08:21 am »
Thanks as always Pat.

Best, Noah

Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2007, 03:37:20 pm »
Before it appears one more time as a portrait of Vitellius (it certainly is good enough to be an emperor), I put before you one of my favorite portrait heads.  In one of Michael Grant's more popularizing books, this was used, full-page, as Vitellius.  No one who has ever spent more than an hour or two studying portraiture agrees; at least, I have asked very serious experts, as well as persons who have merely shown that they have a good analytical 'eye', whether they agree with Grant, and whether they know of any serious article that argues for that identification.  I myself have studied it sporadically over the last 20 years.
Who is it, in your considered opinion?  What reasons are there against calling it Vitellius?  There is so much unauthorized attribution on the internet that we all need to become our own authorities.  'Feel' may be a good beginning (since it is the sum of the traits of the head and the workmanship), but it is only something to be tested by analysis.  Can you, anyhow, date the workmanship?  It is, after all, masterly work.  But, "Michael Grant said so" is not in this case authority; nowhere does he argue the case for the identification, and he may not even have chosen the illustrations.
Pat L.
NB: in most of the wiki-like postings, it is the plaster cast in the Museo d. Civilità Romana that is used, so the label may come from the era that built that museum.  NB, too: the fat-man portrait in the Capitolino has a post-Renaissance fancy bust.  NB, again: most of the Scandinavian and Finnish and Hungarian and even Welsh wiki's illustrate Vitellius with a coin...

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 06:50:12 pm »
I have always loved that Bust...I can see why people would default attribute it to a Vitellius. I KNOW who it IS. John Goodman got his hands on a time machine and while spending time in Abcient Rome sat for a portrait. :)

Offline Noah

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2007, 04:59:37 pm »
Good analogy DruMAX!  Well, I found this one and it was labeled Maximian.  To me it looks more like Max Thrax.  So, who is it?

Best, Noah

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2007, 05:37:12 pm »
 
      That is a small image, but for facial features, I think I’m inclined to agree Noah.
  Looks familiar…
 
     
 
 
    Best,
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Offline slokind

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Re: Name That Emperor Portrait/Bust...
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2007, 07:53:45 pm »
Max Thrax.  I think this one in Copenhagen is best.  Vagn Poulsen's two-volume study of their Roman portraits only mentions Max Daia and Max Hercules, and NCG evidently does not own a head of either.  Pat L.

 

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