What would YOU do ?

[helvetica]

Over the past year or so I have received emails with images of rare Middle Eastern (notably Iraqi) gold coins or necklaces or bracelets of gold coins, from men writing that they "acquired" or "came across" or other euphemistic term, whilst they were serving in the US Military during Desert Storm. Another such email arrived yesterday.
Having read reports that certain sections of the western military looted museums during their service in Iraq (before ISIS later began their own looting and selling antiquities to finance their activities), sharing out the booty amongst themselves, despite specific orders to leave museums, art galleries and private homes alone, I suspect that such coins were actually looted, i.e. stolen from one of the Iraqi museums. For me the idea is sickening.

I sent yesterday's sender a one line reply that I do not help people identify looted coins.

What would YOU do, though ? Help him ID the coin ? Give him a bollocking (English people will know what that means) ? Look the other way ?

[lawrence c]

A couple observations. I can't speak for other countries' militaries, but in the case of US troops, speaking from experience, everything mailed out of Iraq was examined, and there were thorough shakedowns upon redeployment. There was a lot of attention paid to this issue. There probably was some 'seepage', but it would require a lot of initiative and likely was relatively minimal. On the other hand, there was a lot of looting by Iraqis shortly after the invasion; this was limited (finally) by putting more security on historical sites and museums, but a lot of material almost certainly ended up in criminal hands. All this of course was exacerbated by the US ignoring Iraq and the subsequent rise of IS and its organized looting. Any of these emails you are receiving certainly are coming from criminals (a la Nigerian princes). I agree with your response on bollocking, although I would use the phrase 'jack slap.'
Best,
Larry

[helvetica]

The email I received the other day was definitely an ex USA soldier, firstly because he wrote the name of the town he lives in, secondly because I found his name on a military website and thirdly because his name cropped up on a forum of ex-military. (Just call me Miss Marple  )

[Joe Sermarini]

It would be very difficult for soldiers to loot museums. They are never alone, the leaders are all career soldiers with a lot to lose, and they are pretty good at following orders. It would be difficult to get the whole group to commit crimes together and they would be prosecuted and sent to prison if caught.

I have had a number of service men send me photos of things they bought there, which they also were undoubtedly told not to do, but which is not the same level as looting a museum. Everything was fake and very obviously fake. Nothing gold. Real tourist fakes. Once guy sent me a photo of a late Roman bronze he found digging a ditch. That is the only genuine coin anyone sent photo of to me from Iraq or Afganistan. 

I believe most of the stories of looting museums, even ISIS looting museums, are fabrications of the anti-collectors. The idea that they made a lot of money that way is no doubt nonsense. I have heard that museum staffs hid a lot of material and brought it back after the fighting. What was left behind was more likely to be smashed than sold. I am very sure nobody from ISIS contacted me and I did not see an increase in material from those areas at the time.

Despite your detective work. I still think a Nigerian prince is more likely than an actual service member.

[Dominic T]

I believe most of the stories of looting museums, even ISIS looting museums, are fabrications of the anti-collectors.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/03/us-to-return-17000-looted-ancient-artefacts-to-iraq#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20is%20returning,of%20Gilgamesh%2C%20Iraq%20has%20said.

[lawrence c]

On the looting, this is something I have a lot more background than in Roman coins, about which I know absolutely nothing. For those who have access to EBSCO (or who would like me to email a copy to them), probably the best study -- without some of the histrionics involved in some reports -- is a case study by Adnan Almohamad, "The destruction and looting of cultural heritage sites by ISIS in Syria: The case of Manbij and its countryside", International Journal of Cultural Property, 2021. I certainly agree with Joe that this was exaggerated, with most of their income coming from other sources, but it was a factor. In many cases, though, I think that IS made a good cover for criminal elements, who were able to take advantage of the chaos.
Best,
Larry
,

[Joe Sermarini]

I believe most of the stories of looting museums, even ISIS looting museums, are fabrications of the anti-collectors.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/03/us-to-return-17000-looted-ancient-artefacts-to-iraq#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20is%20returning,of%20Gilgamesh%2C%20Iraq%20has%20said.

Just read the title and you KNOW it is bullshit - 17,000 in the US! I think not. The people who metal detect (which the anti-collectors also call looting) sell in Germany and London, not the US. They can actually drive there in a car or take a train. This exaggerated nonsense is exactly why I said these stories are fabrications.

[Dominic T]

I’m not gonna argue about the numbers Joe, but the « U.S. Immigration and Customs
Enforcement » are talking about 15,000 since 2007 on their website. They are related to the US department of Homeland security !!!

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/us-returns-stolen-ancient-artifacts-iraq-repatriation-ceremony

[Joe Sermarini]

I’m not gonna argue about the numbers Joe, but the « U.S. Immigration and Customs
Enforcement » are talking about 15,000 since 2007 on their website. They are related to the US department of Homeland security !!!

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/us-returns-stolen-ancient-artifacts-iraq-repatriation-ceremony

15,000 to 40 countries and since 2007. You do realize that is quite a few countries and quite a few years. 5,000 to Iraq. And I doubt those numbers too. I am sure very few of those items were "looted" from museums. Most were items seized by customs at the border, some were undoubtedly ancient coins seized under the ridiculous MOUs this country keeps signing. Many were undoubtedly items purchased at European auctions or from dealers in Canada. The tablet they are talking about was not stolen from a museum. It had, they said, changed hands several times in sales and auctions before coming to the US. They do not say where or when it was found or left Iraq, undoubtedly because they do not know. They took it from people who bought it, probably without any evidence at all that it was looted, threatening criminal charges if they didn't give it away.

This is not the place to support or even discuss patrimony claims and confiscations.

[Virgil H]

I served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. Any looting is greatly exaggerated by US soldiers. In Iraq, a small detachment from my unit was at Babylon and every time the insurgents mortared the position and hit the ruins, we got blamed. To the point that they moved the base. I had a rock confiscated from me when I left by Customs that was in my pocket. Looting happened I am sure, but by Iraqis mainly.

This totally sounds like a scam and there are many scams using US forces as pretext, mostly romantic scams looking for money. I bought a coin in Ghazni in Afghanistan from a street vendor I posted here years ago, "an obvious tourist fake" and it was so bad Joe didn't even ask for a fake report. Very, very few Americans had any access to loot anything. And the US was totally stupid when it came to allowing us to take "war trophies" to the point it was nuts. No flags, no nothing. All I got out was a small tile from one of Saddam's palaces that was lying on the ground when I found it (like 30 mm wide) and a small piece of shrapnel I dug out of my living quarters after a mortar attack (and there was no reason not to be allowed to have that, but I had to hide it). If Customs had found that, they would have taken them. I guarantee no wide scale looting of coins or anything else happened by us. I bet you are getting targeted because of Wildwinds and most, if not all, are actually not Americans and the coins are probably fakes or non-existent and pictures taken off the Internet.

Virgil

[Joe Sermarini]

Thanks for your service Virgil. I only wish those nations took what we were offering and became better places for their own people. Sad.