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Author Topic: AE Numbers  (Read 5225 times)

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Offline Ken Peck

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AE Numbers
« on: April 07, 2010, 10:49:34 am »
I have acquired several bronze coins recently. The information provided with the coins have  "AE" and then a number: e.g., "AE 20", "AE 19", "AE 23". I would like to know what these numbes indicate. I have a Sayles book which has a brief mention of "AE-1" through "AE-5" as referring to the diameter of the coin. But the numbers given on these coins are way outside the numers mentioned by Sayles. What is the classification scheme being used here?

Offline areich

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 10:55:04 am »
It's simply the size in millimeters. The classification Sayles uses is a different one for Late Romans, where A1 is the largest (about 25mmm) and AE4 the smallest (under 13mm, I think).

So you could call a drachm an AR18 but that isn't necessary since the name of the nomination is known,
which usually isn't the case with Greek and Provincial bronzes.

Andreas
Andreas Reich

Offline Ken Peck

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 08:40:57 pm »
Thanks.

FYI (and anyone else reading this thread), Sayles codes are:

AE-1 = 25+ mm.
AE-2 = 21-24 mm.
AE-3 = 17-20 mm.
AE-4 = < 17 mm.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 07:10:05 am »
A hard lesson for new collectors is often that 'I don't know' is a correct answer.  Even advanced scholars have doubts and disagreements about some denomination names and values with many series changing often enough to be more than a little confusing.  This is bad in silver and ridiculous in bronze.  Traditionally (long before Sayles) Roman Imperial coins of uncertain denominations were grouped into the four AE ranges given above.  Greek and other coins used the diameter in mm system.  We can be thankful that there are no AE coins of 4mm diameter or less so we always know which system is in use. 

Should we abandon the Roman groups and use mm for everything?  That would be fine with me but changes like that rarely occur rapidly and by the time people have been in the hobby long enough to start pressing for such changes, the old way starts making sense to the point that they decide to fight other battles.  I personally dislike the AE1-AE4 business because there are so many coins that cluster around the break between AE3 and AE4 that we often see coins listed as AE3/4.  I'd climb on a soapbox about this issue but I'd rather break people of using incorrect names applied at random (often it seems) so 'follis' bothers me more than AE1 or AE4.

Offline commodus

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 12:29:14 pm »
I intensely dislike the AE 1 through AE 4 (and sometimes AE 5) system. If the denominations are not known (though with the Roman coins they often are but some dealers and collectors will use the system anyway, rather than say a coin is a half-centenionalis, centenionalis, maiorina, etc.; lazy, I guess -- or just uncertain) it is far preferable to use the millimeter size. However, the custom is to use millimeters for provincial issues and the AE 1-4 system for Imperial issues (even if struck at provincial mints!).
I suppose that custom is with us to stay. I can add it to my list of peeves, rather like the terms "widow's mite" and "tribute penny," or calling city gates "campgates," or referrring to the emperor Julian "Julian II," even though there was no other emperor named Julian before him (he is never called Julian II in historical sources, only in numismatic ones). But I digress. Like those, it is a small thing, perhaps, but worthy of correction, though unlikely to change -- perhaps ever.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 12:45:30 pm »
Here is a coin of Julian I  ;)

Best regards

Offline commodus

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 06:24:39 pm »
No, with all due respect, historically speaking Julian of Pannonia was NOT "Julian I." He was not an emperor but a usurper, or rather a rebel as he never successfully usurped the throne and only VERY briefly controlled a small part of the east before he and his rebel army entered the Italian penninsula to be promptly slain by Carinus at Verona when they attempted to march on Rome. He was not considered to be a legitimate emperor by the Romans either then nor later, and historians do not regard him as such now. He is in the same class as so many other usurpers and rebels who optimistically struck coinage but who were unsuccessful in their revolts and quickly supressed: important as the issuer of now-rare coinage and locally important in the history of the Roman provinces and the Empire's internal wars, but NEVER an emperor.
The legitimate emperor Julian, grandson of Constantius Chlorus, nephew and son-in-law of Constantine the Great, brother of Constantius Gallus and cousin and brother-in-law of Crispus, Constans, Constantine II, and Constantius II, never styled himself "Julian II" and it is quite safe to say that neither he nor anyone in the Roman Empire in his day considered Julian of Pannonia to have been a legitimate ruler.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline dougsmit

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 07:18:23 am »
...and how do you feel about Didius Julianus?  We have no consistency on such things or we would have Marcus Aurelius X, Vespasian II or at least Antoninus Pius III.  Julian might be better distinguished by a term like 'Apostate' since his numeral could be I, II or III depending on how you look at it. 

Who started using numbers?  Henry VIII is a famous one who put it on coins.

Offline commodus

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 12:27:19 pm »
Didius Julianus is never styled as Julian, so that is a moot point, really. The styling "Julian II" for the Emperor Julian exists ONLY in numismatic literature and in no historical sources of which I am aware.
Doubtless, as with "campgates," this was an error that was made someplace long ago and which has been picked up and repeated throughout numismatic literature ever since. It is unlikely to be corrected and so remains just a peeve for me, though I am sure I am not alone. I, for one, see no reason not to refer to the only emperor called Julian simply as "Julian." Julian of Pannonia is clear enough already as he is never called "Julian I" anyway and I see no reason to clarify the leigitmae emperor Julian further with such negative epithets as "the Apostate" ("the Restorer" might be better, or perhaps, as is sometimes used, "the Pius"), when it is already clear who is meant when we refer to the Emperor Julian.
In any case I apologize for carrying this thread off in a different direction. It was not intended.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline dougsmit

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 02:35:41 pm »
I note that RIC and older books I have do not numeral Julian.  Did this start with SearStevenson lists both Didius and the Apostate as Julianus.  Please provide any listing you have that shows who the originator of this II had in mind as I.  I suspect the first publication of it explained the thinking.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2010, 04:06:02 pm »
Well, as Doug S. notes, Didius Julianus is listed under "Julianus" in Stevenson's Dictionary, published in 1889 but representing the state of knowledge of c. 1850, Stevenson having died in 1853.

Stevenson's second Julianus (without numeral) is the Apostate, his third is the usurper.

I don't get upset about "Julian II", since as far as I am aware ALL numerals attached to rulers of the same name are modern conventions, proposed by scholars from the early Renaissance on. No ancient source, I think, attaches the ordinal II to the names of Constantine's sons Constantine and Constantius, or I - III to the three Valentinians, and so on. These are just modern conventions, contributing to clarity, so calling the Apostate "Julian II" cannot be considered a great offense against historical correctness!

I think this same question regarding "Julian II" was discussed on Moneta-L about ten years ago, but I don't recall what conclusions, if any, were reached.
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Offline commodus

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2010, 04:07:49 pm »
Interesting.
Yes, I too would like to know the origin of this.
I suspect an error or misunderstanding of Roman names and/or Roman history. Once the error was made, it was repeated continually ever after.


It is a relatively small matter, though. I'll continue calling him Julian (or Julianus) and considering him to be the only true emperor of that name (Didius Julianus notwithstanding -- he'd be Julianus I if not for that pesky "Didius," but that changes everything; doubtless this is why Stevenson does not refer to them as Julianus I and II).

As I said above, I regret moving us so far off topic.


Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 11:38:59 pm »
I just ran into this thread, which somehow I had not seen before.  I miss Eric.  He was particulary amusing here. 
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Offline Sosius

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 08:29:47 pm »
I just ran into this thread, which somehow I had not seen before.  I miss Eric.  He was particulary amusing here. 

Likewise. I miss him too. He was quick to reply to posts regardless of how simple or sophisticated the questions. He was a great emailer outside of the board as well.

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Offline Mark Z

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 11:18:34 pm »
Joe,

I didn't know Eric nearly as well as you and some of the others here on FORVM so I made it a point to browse through a few hundred of his posts after he passed away. I found him to be a gentle, humorous person with a kind soul and a lot of knowledge that he never lorded over anyone here. It was always gratifying to know that he had looked in on a post of mine and had made a helpful comment.

One of the good guys, for sure.

mz

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Re: AE Numbers
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 04:45:15 am »
I can understand your frustration since regnal naming conventions are arbitrary schemes cooked up in modern times to help avoid confusing similarly named people. And since they are arbitrary there isn't a lot of consistency. Still, for whatever it's worth, in the case of Julian the II *is* appended in recognition of the usurper. It is why we get Constantine III.

Like it or not this algorithm seems to be the "generally recognized consensus" for the Roman/Byzantine age:

Add numeral to successor if held title of Augustus where cognomen was the same as a previous Augustus except not if ultimate rank attained was only Caesar unless his caesarship was contemporary to an eponymous Augustus or if the ruler's name was typically styled along with his nomen or he is better known by a nickname (!)

In this scheme we see why, for example,

1- Didius Julianus is not referred to as Julian I for the Didius is always accompanied with the Julianus
2- For having historically catchy nicknames we don't see the arguably more appropriate Antoninus II and III, respectively
3- We refer to Valerian II and Licinius II though they were only caesars (to avoid confusion with their fathers)

So in the end whether or not the ruler usurped power or not is irrelevant so long as he was recognized as an emperor in his home province (and in effect we should recall that a majority of non-dynastic successions started out in one extra-legal fashion or another). In practice, however, we do tend to drop the numerals when the successor was only of trivial historical importance.

Ras

Quote from: commodus on April 11, 2010, 06:24:39 pm
No, with all due respect, historically speaking Julian of Pannonia was NOT "Julian I." He was not an emperor but a usurper, or rather a rebel as he never successfully usurped the throne and only VERY briefly controlled a small part of the east before he and his rebel army entered the Italian penninsula to be promptly slain by Carinus at Verona when they attempted to march on Rome. He was not considered to be a legitimate emperor by the Romans either then nor later, and historians do not regard him as such now. He is in the same class as so many other usurpers and rebels who optimistically struck coinage but who were unsuccessful in their revolts and quickly supressed: important as the issuer of now-rare coinage and locally important in the history of the Roman provinces and the Empire's internal wars, but NEVER an emperor.
The legitimate emperor Julian, grandson of Constantius Chlorus, nephew and son-in-law of Constantine the Great, brother of Constantius Gallus and cousin and brother-in-law of Crispus, Constans, Constantine II, and Constantius II, never styled himself "Julian II" and it is quite safe to say that neither he nor anyone in the Roman Empire in his day considered Julian of Pannonia to have been a legitimate ruler.



 

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