Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms  (Read 448 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« on: January 18, 2024, 05:32:32 pm »
Just before Christmas a regular contributor and advertiser on wildwinds sent me a photo of a Lysimachos tetradrachm (type: Athena seated on the reverse) with a request for identification. I knew that there are several different monograms and symbols on these so I thought I'd made a quick xls list, like my popular RIC lists, of such tetradrachms.
So I first turned to Thompson's work, then the Meydancikkale hoard, the Mektepini hoard, Marinescu's work, then thought I'd better check Müller, SNG France, SNG Cop, SNG Black Sea, SNG Black Sea Stancomb, then I remembered the Babylon, Commerce Demetrius and Gordion hoards - oops, I nearly forgot Bellinger, Mionnet, Cousinéry in Paris.
And - in the words of the song in Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" - and still they come: Yet more variations of mintmarks, symbols, their positions (even without distinguishing between outer left and inner left, apart from using a comma) and combinations, in the Black Sea Hoard, the Ordu hoard, the Armenak hoard, the Corpus Nummorum website, Meadow's Tenedos article, the Mesopotamia hoard, the Tell Halaf hoard, the Kirikhan hoard, Sardis XI Excavations, the Achaeus hoard and various works by Imhoof......
I am currently checking the "unpublished" and "vars" on Coin Archives Pro, then there is Callatay's Guerres to check through and then Arslan & Ulrike Peter's "Thrakien und Moesien" plus a couple of other entries in my indexed "Books Contents" xls list..
And the result so far after nearly 4 weeks, working on the list every day ?
1,167 variations and 552 different monograms, all illustrated on a page of the xls...
So much for my initial idea of there being only "several different monograms and symbols"

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7008
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2024, 11:12:54 pm »
 +++
Astonishing!

Offline Altamura

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2948
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 am »
... 1,167 variations and 552 different monograms ...
That's really a huge number, I wouldn't have expected that.
And also a huge effort, thanks for that!

Regards

Altamura

Offline Arados

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2024, 10:08:35 am »
Totaly flabbergasted, great work Dane.

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5146
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2024, 10:18:14 am »
Hi Dane,

Thank you for conducting this research and doing the work. I am sure that everyone will appreciate it.

I never realized that there could be so many different monograms and variations on one type.

I have one example of those coins (first coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/g_thrace_kings.htm

Mine is Thompson 115.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5146
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2024, 10:24:40 am »
Hi folks,

Can you imagine if someone tried to assemble a complete set of each different monogram and variation? That would be a monumental undertaking.

Actually, I am attempting to do something similar regarding Campania, Neapolis, man-faced bull AR didrachms and AE coins. I am trying to assemble a complete set of each symbol, letter, and monogram. That is the reason why the Campania section of my website is so large and comprehensive.

Meepzorp

Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2024, 10:51:08 am »
Hi Meep: Your monogram is what I call the "PAYR (A upside down) monogram" and is also "Armenak hoard 852".

Offline quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10703
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2024, 11:23:23 am »
Hi Dane,

Great work, thank you.

I remember when, in the early 2000s, we had to go through 70,000 Hungarian medieval Árpád-house coins to create the 3-volume sigla system, which took 10 years.
I can only congratulate you on your perseverance.

Regards

  Joe/Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 5146
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2024, 02:58:54 am »
Hi Meep: Your monogram is what I call the "PAYR (A upside down) monogram" and is also "Armenak hoard 852".

Hi Dane,

Thanks for the information. :)

Meepzorp

Offline Brennos

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2024, 05:04:55 am »
Congratulations, it's a great job !
I can't imagine the knowledge that could be gained by cross-referencing monograms between different types, eras and regions.


Just a technical question  : how do you reproduce with such a great accusacy  the monograms on your computer ?

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12152
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2024, 11:02:44 am »
Wow!
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Anaximander

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2024, 02:50:36 pm »
Brilliant!  Nicely done helvetica! 

This feat brings to mind a couple of classics in ancient numismatics...
Müller's Numismatique d'Alexandre le Grand (1855), with its 1714 entries (of all denominations), and
Price's Coinage in the Name of Alexander the Great... (1991), with 4000+ entries (same).

The big challenge in using those tomes consists in finding a specific symbol amidst all those entries. Your "smart" list could prove to be more readily searchable.

Like Meep, I have a Lysmachos tetradrachm lurking in my members gallery

Lysimachos. 323-281 BC. AR Tetradrachm (16.78 gm, 22mm, 1h) of Magnesia ad Maeandrum, 297-281 BC. Head of deified Alexander right, wearing horn of Ammon. / Athena Nikephoros seated left, holding Nike and leaning on shield. ΔΞ monogram to left. ΠΩ monogram in ex. ΛΥΣΙΜΑΧΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ. Thompson Essays #104; Thompson Armenak Hoard (1423) #834. HGC 3.2 #1750e. cf. (with crescent in ex.): SNG Cop 2 (Thrace) #1097; Muller Lysimachus (Sigeum) #399; SNG Lockett 1249. Jenkins 1967 - ; Wildwinds;).
Anaximander Barypous
Member since 2019.
FAC Member Gallery

Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2024, 12:44:17 pm »
Just a technical question  : how do you reproduce with such a great accusacy  the monograms on your computer ?

Zooming in on the monograms on coins, then using an ancient version of Paint Shop Pro to draw them. Some of them were also copied directly from e.g. the work by Marinescu.
What is annoying are some monograms in e.g. SNG Copenhagen where the actual monogram on the coin is very different from the sketch they give at the bottom of the page. One SNG Cop coin has a clear DPA monogram (Delta on Pi with an M in the centre) but the sketch they give shows a Phi on a Pi with an A (with "v-crossbar) in the centre.

So it's a case of checking every monogram.

Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2024, 01:07:34 pm »
Quote from: Christian T on January 21, 2024, 02:50:36 pm
Brilliant!  Nicely done helvetica! 
Like Meep, I have a Lysmachos tetradrachm lurking in my members gallery

..
ΔΞ monogram to left. ΠΩ monogram in ex. ΛΥΣΙΜΑΧΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ. Thompson Essays #104; Thompson Armenak Hoard (1423) #834. HGC 3.2 #1750e. cf. (with crescent in ex.): SNG Cop 2 (Thrace) #1097; Muller Lysimachus (Sigeum) #399; SNG Lockett 1249. Jenkins 1967 - ; Wildwinds;).

There are two types of similar monograms in the exergue. One (your type) I call "PW (W upside down)"
The other is "PO" where the O is definitely separate. One was sold by Roma Num. (who, over the past 10 years or so, has sold a remarkable number of these tetradrachms with otherwise unpublished monogram/symbol/combinations).

As to the text in your Gallery:
Thompson 104; Armenak hoard 834 are correct.

However it is not "SNG Cop 2 (Thrace) #1097 nor Muller Lysimachus (Sigeum) #399 nor SNG Lockett 1249, all of which have a crescent in the exergue.
I am not sure which work you refer to with "Jenkins 1967". Could you tell me what you refer to ?

Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2024, 04:06:26 pm »
By the way, the current count is 1,370 coins and 639 monograms.

Christian T2

  • Guest
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2024, 02:56:02 pm »
Jenkins 1967 = G. Kenneth Jenkins. Keeper of Coins, British Museum: A Hellenistic Hoard from Mesopotamia ANSMN 13 (1967) pp. 41-56.

I know that I was stretching credulity with several "cf. (with crescent in ex.)" references to SNG Cop. et al, but there are similarities to my example. 

BTW: I lost my FAC ID. I'm only now able to login with my initial ID, and just found my gallery listed under the user "unknown coward."  Not a happy circumstance.


Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2024, 03:43:34 pm »
Jenkins 1967 = G. Kenneth Jenkins. Keeper of Coins, British Museum: A Hellenistic Hoard from Mesopotamia ANSMN 13 (1967) pp. 41-56.

Ah, I had already listed them as the Mesopotamia Hoard

Christian T2

  • Guest
Re: Massive output of Lysimachos Athena Tetradrachms
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2024, 05:35:06 pm »
Still compiling Lysimachos monograms? Here’s one from okidoki:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=124242

Found it looking up our candidates’ posts and galleries for member of the year.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity