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Author Topic: "Snow Leopard" of the day  (Read 2754 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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"Snow Leopard" of the day
« on: November 25, 2009, 07:28:37 pm »
The mail today brought me an animal I did not have but I really do not know the intent of the maker of the coin.  For that matter there is less known about this Chach coin than almost any I have so I suppose we can forgive the confusion over the animal.  In Rtveladze, The Ancient Coins of Central Asia, it is called a "galloping beast, possibly snow leopard" but tigers still existed in Central Asia in the 7-8th century AD (I have no closer dating for the coin).  The Sogdian legend on the reverse is a matter of disagreement depending where you look with agreement on 'king' at the top and various spellings of the name below so I'll take Tarnavch.  People differ on which way to call 'up' on the reverse but the sideways Tamgha as shown makes the other legend read right way up.  These are seen frequently in nasty condition (mine is average at best compared to some) and all were cast (not struck).  20mm 1.8g Shagalov-Kuznetsov 6/8/2 

I've posted similar coins before and gathered that no one here collects them.  If I'm wrong, please do reply. 


Offline Jay GT4

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 11:18:49 pm »
Never seen anything like it!  Where in Central Asia do these come from?  Would be interesting to read the different theories behind the images.

Offline slokind

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2009, 12:32:46 am »
I had to Google it, too.  I think it is the first 'Chach' in the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chach_(disambiguation).  That is, a place south of modern Tashkent in Uzbekistan.
Pat L.
Shepherd's Historical Atlas, the 1921 edition that I have, does not index it, nor did I find it, no matter how I tried spelling it, in the
Grosser historicscher Welt-Atlas of the 1960s, and the 11th EB of 1910 indexes only Chach as 'a Brahnmin ruler' (one of the names that Wiki is at pains to disambiguate).
Let's not bad-mouth Wiki, just because to do so seems to be fashionable or just because it isn't always right: neither are the others.
Pat L.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2009, 08:55:54 am »
I like to learn things that had completely escaped my notice previously.  Some of the best things are not good for the purpose because the experts in the field only have a 1% understanding of the matter.  Chach was my 2009 subject.   Almost a year ago I posted this book review which drew one reply from a guest and have posted a couple other coins. 
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49817.0
They exist on zeno.ru (they have three of the slightly earlier version of these but not an exact match) and grifterrec.com which has a handful of more different things than I can ever imagine studying.

I do not recommend collecting the coins to those who believe eBay is a sin.  They have shown up in other venues but not with regularity.  I became aware / fascinated when I found a book by Rtveladze in a used book store notable for being trilingual and showing many coins I had never seen before (including one like my new one).  Wiki tells a bit but under the modern heading "Tashkent".  Coins were issued up to the Islamic conquest in the 8th century.  There are several other coin opportunities from neighboring regions and Wiki even shows a couple on their page on Sogdiana.

Never badmouth Wiki.  If you are too cool for reading Wiki, consider writing for them.  The advantage of the Internet and the advantage of Wiki is that errors can be fixed as opposed to those we make in printed books that remain forever to confuse new generations yet unborn.  Of course if your goal is building a career and selling books, anything that offers free knowledge will be your enemy.  Imagine how some people must hate this Forvm!

Offline slokind

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2009, 05:48:16 pm »
Amen!  And, though we don't know exactly how it will eventuate, we are in the midst of a huge, universal change in the transmission of knowledge.  Everything Doug says about Wikipedia is perfectly true, in my opinion.  Only a child or the stereotype of a "C student" expects every article to be perfectly correct, anywhere.  Articles in RE and Roscher and Daremberg & Saglio also vary according to their authors.  More so in LIMC.  One thing about Wikipedia, in the present 'best of all possible worlds' is that learned specialists, whose articles might be reduced to a couple of sentences or the subject itself eliminated, on the specious grounds that "nobody" will be interested in them (ask anyone who ever tried to write a textbook, too) is its inclusiveness, thanks to the availability of practically unlimited storage.  The great thing about Google (and other) projects to scan all great libraries is its inclusion of numismatic journals that most of us would have had to travel thousands of miles to consult (or wait a month for a library willing to send it to be found) is its saving things that less enlightened persons, who might have authority, would trash because 'nobody' wants to consult them.  Most of what I consult at the local university library is (when they have it) what 'nobody' wants.  Google and Wiki and I and my friends are happy to be 'nobody'.
An unfortunate fact is that the 20c generated so much more printed matter than ever before that it has exceeded the capacities for hard-copy storage.  This while a sort of pseudo-populism dictates that only the numerical majority of humanity, in political and economic terms, is ever right. Yet this year, a little but not insignificant, article of mine has gone to press and, just too late, CA has announced (as Adobe did ages ago) an academic-salary priced edition, so that a coin that Loebbecke listed in 1885 and of which the sole known specimen was sold by M&M (Cahn) in 1970 and again by a consortium at a NY sale more recently, had to be discussed without any link to any image of it.  I am sure that CA and the scholar-neglecting dealers will repent and release a link just barely too late (it is too late now).  Perhaps after we're all dead Google will put the little journal on line, where an emendation can be made.
Pat L.

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2009, 06:23:08 pm »
Yes, long live Wikipedia!  I can get lost in it for hours at a time, just by following links to things "nobody" would want to read (including "Chach," an interest sparked in me by Sayles' book on non-classical coinages a couple of years ago -- one day I will buy a coin).  Where else can you get articles written in Old Church Slavic (not much content though), or any of dozens and dozens and dozens of other languages, living or not so living, all interesting in and of themselves! 

I can judge the  correctness of the content for myself, thank you, or, the likelihood of correctness, at least.  Skepticism towards any material you are presented with is always appropriate, no matter the source!  Unfortunately, I read somewhere a couple of days ago that Wikipedia is loosing contributors at an alarming rate;  I think the figures were something like 49,000 down to 4,500.  Get busy, you people!   George S.
Hwaet!
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Offline slokind

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2009, 10:47:18 pm »
As I wrote just now by PM, I just did so, when I read Doug's posting.  I looked at my boxes of coins and by a sort of dead reckoning decided about how much any one of them was worth today, then I rounded up and went to PayPal.  That seems a fair assessment for each of us to make (those with substantial resources don't need my advice, and those who just hate the idea of a Wiki don't need to follow it).
Pat L.

Offline areich

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Re: "Snow Leopard" of the day
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2009, 03:15:40 am »
But that's neither surprising nor any reason for alarm. Most of the interesting topics have been done,
there's no reason for so many new contributors anymore. What IS cause for alarm is that for many Wikipedia editors it's
not about content mor knowledge but simply power, driving many new contributors away and just deleting content
a new contributor added, regardless of its merit or lack thereof. And no, that's not bitterness, I never tried myself,
it's just something I read about.
Andreas Reich

 

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