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Author Topic: Jesus on coins  (Read 2427 times)

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Offline Numerianus

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Jesus on coins
« on: February 11, 2006, 04:52:52 pm »
What  was the  first coin with the effigie of Jesus Christ?

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2006, 05:05:35 pm »
Most likely it was a Byzantine coin.  The earlest I can find in a quick look through Sear's Byazantine book is Justinian II, 705-711 AD.


Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2006, 09:08:11 pm »
Maybe 1st reign Hexagram of Justinian II 685-695 AD?

Ben

Offline Rhetor

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2006, 09:19:22 pm »
Sayles' book on Byzantine coins concurs: Justinian II (685-95).  See his p. 2, bottom.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 02:11:57 pm »
An adjacent question:  what is about effigies of Mohamet on his coins?
It was quite common during almost a millenium that  rulers  placed their effigies on coins.
This tradition was broken in the 7th century?

Offline lv88

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 03:04:00 pm »
An adjacent question:  what is about effigies of Mohamet on his coins?
Dear Numerianus, it is forbidden in Islam to show living things on coins, though this tradition was broken at times, most shining example the Turkic dynasites of 12th century and on.

Mohammed, especially, it is forbidded to show his face because muslimns consider this promotes the worship of idols. If you have ever seen islamic manuscripts Mohammed is always veiled ....


Offline Howard Cole

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 03:40:20 pm »
I have to disagree with lv88.  I truly believe it was not forbidden and that this idea about being forbidden is a modern concept or at least a concept of one of the Muslem sects, but is not universal.  For example if you look at the early bronze coins of the Umayyad Caliphate, they have many animals and plants on these coins.  Then there is the whole Iranian civil coppers which have a large variety of images on them.  I don't even want to go into all the images on Muslem Indian coins.

As for a coin with Mohamet on it, I don't think any exist.  I read about one mural that had Mohamet on it but the face showed not eyes, nose or mouth.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 05:23:42 pm »
Animal and plant images are used in Islamic art, but human images are unusual. There are some sections of Islam where images of the Prophet are allowed, but this is unusual. Mohammed is recorded as having said that 'Angels will not enter a house where there are images'; the names of witnesses to his statements were recorded, along with their biographies so it's still possible to check out whether they're likely to be trustworthy. There are disagreements as to what constitutes an image; it's usually taken as a reference to the human form, and some will argue that it only refers to three-dimensional images, or to complete images. Images of mohammed are especially frowned on as they could be disrespectful or lead to idolatry.
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Offline PeterD

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2006, 05:33:15 pm »
Quote
It was quite common during almost a millenium that  rulers  placed their effigies on coins

Mohammed was not a ruler and therefore did not issue coins.
Peter, London

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2006, 05:49:42 pm »
He was; he was invited to rule Medina, about 250 miles north of Mecca, and the Islamic calendar dates from his move there.

Coming back to the idea that the prohibition of images is modern, I found a quotation from Imam at-Tahawi al-Hanafi, the founder of the Hanafi school of Islamic law, which is the one most open to the modern world. He was born in 699 AD. He said: "The Lawmaker (s) first forbade pictures entirely, even stripes on clothes, because people had only recently turned away from worshipping images, so that was prohibited across the board. When his prohibition of such images became solidly ingrained, he permitted striped clothes due to the necessity of using clothes, and he permitted whatever is practiced as a matter of trade, because the ignorant are safe from exalting such practice. As for what is not practiced as a matter of trade, it remained forbidden."

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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2006, 11:21:26 am »
Here is a  gold coin from WW with the effigie of Christ  of the first reign of Justinian II (around 692 AD).
Could  one say that  that at the  7th century the islam was very close to Christianism and
prohibiting worshipping images  in  such an ultimate form as to prohibit all images was aimed to
distinguish and separate the religions that share the same god?   

Offline slokind

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2006, 03:21:10 pm »
What I am saying is what I was taught in high school history class, but it may be true to reality. 
Christianity was born in a mixed culture, part Greco-Roman but part speakers of semitic languages, such as Aramaic and Hebrew, who historically were not users of images in their worship, at least not in the ways that the speakers of Greek and Latin, and for that matter Egyptian dialects, were. 
Islam was born in a different and more homogeneous, largely desert-dwelling group of cultures, which had at most only marginally participated in the image-rich cultures of ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome.  The tendency to episodes of iconoclasm in Christianity comes with the Bible and its writers, who, even in the Greek books, apart from Luke and Paul, had had little involvement with image use in religion--and Paul, that candid, rather dear man, certainly was troubled about such differences.
When we use terms such as Judaeo-Christian, not only does this imply the combined Hebrew and Greek Bibles but also the conversion, remarkably, of a world in which images were as pervasive as they are today.  Pat L.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2006, 05:10:32 pm »
You're on the right lines apart from one point; they had (I think ) 360 idols in the Kaaba, which was an ancient temple in Mecca, believed to have been built by Abraham on the ruins of a house built by Adam. Making idols was big business locally; the city was at the junction of two important trade routes, and the Kaaba was such an important reigious site that there was a law forbidding fighting within 20 miles of it, so that all the Arabian tribes could visit it in peace. The iconoclasm in Islam originated as a reaction against this. I suspect Israelite iconoclasm started as a reaction against the polytheism of the pre-exilic period, but as far as I can see there's really not enough evidence left to be certain. Then there was the business of the Hellenisers in 167 BC, backed by Antiochos IV, putting an altar to Zeus on the Altar of Burnt Offering and sacrificing pigs on it. It was so calculated that it can only have been devised by Israelites, and inevitably produced a further extreme reaction against idolatry and its associated images.
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2006, 05:33:14 pm »
Robert, I did not understand  your message because we are  discussing  events of the 7th century AD while you  go back as far as
to the 2nd century BC.  Christianity was already a convenient and well-established religion. It seems that there was a need to keep
a distance from it. 

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2006, 05:59:11 pm »
I'm suggesting a parallel between the iconoclastic tendencies in Judaism and Islam, both having originated as reactions against polytheism and its use of images. In the case of Islam we have ample evidence, in the case of Judaism we have to make do with too little evidence.
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Offline Cleisthenes

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Re: Jesus on coins
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2006, 11:24:01 am »
Is anyone interested in papal numismatics?
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