Tiberius Tribute Penny (denarius) Fake or real ?

[Lukas N]

Hello,
I am new here. I came here because I ve got problem with coin that I recently won in an auction held by [REMOVED BY ADMIN]. I trusted them and initially everything looked OK to me, but then by coincidence I found out that on YT channel Classical numismatics there was featured coin very similar to mine. Actually, it looks like a double match. So I started to be suspicious about it whole. I asked about this case already in the Facebook group Ancient coins and a lot of people were suspicious and condemned either both coins or just one of them as fake. They mentioned transfer die and so on. But still, I would like to hear experts opinions here too. In worst case I would try to go for refund, but I keep it as a last option. I am sending the photos of both sides, edges as well. Last pictures below are of the second coin from YT channel. Btw, that one comes from [REMOVED BY ADMIN] and the owner already asked him for a refund after figuring out.

Parameters of my coin: 3.64g 19mm
Parameters of second coin: 3.57g

[Lukas N]

More pics of edges on my coin.

[Din X]

It is a pressed transfer die fake.
Ghost line, soapy details and an equally thick edge/rim indicating pressing.

[Ken W2]

Hey Din:  I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do have a question. I too questioned this coin given the reverse die match to what someone says is a known fake (although that alone wouldn't be enough to condemn). The obverse also appears to die match the coin stated to be fake, but there are differences--- the nose is more pointy on the subject coin and the left side of the first V in AVGVSTVS clearly is different. Those differences suggests someone slightly retouched/changed the die (or transfer die) used to make the coin said to be fake. Also, in places the edge of the subject coin appears cut or worked. In other places the edge looks ok to me. So, I only questioned the coin and based on my limited experience wouldn't declare it fake. Now, to my question:  I like flow lines because they generally mean the coin was struck and that's a good thing. Note the flow lines in the attached clips inside of the ES in CAESAR and between the head and the A in AVG.  While they are not tiny, they are fairly small.  Are you saying that there could be a die transfer process and then the coin be pressed which reproduced flow lines that small ?

[Din X]

On the top coin you can see clearly that the mother was off center and so the letters PO of PONTIF are missing the lower part and ghost lines where the flan of the mother ended.

I condemned this fake because it looks 100% like many hundred of such terrible transfer die fakes I have seen in the last years on ebay, sadly there even appear many transfer die fakes of fakes from modern dies, I have many with identical problem and they are in my trash box. it seems like the transfer dies are casted so very soapy details. I own of course muuuuuuuuuuuuuch better transfer die fakes and transfer dies, they can be of course interesting if they are dangerous.

If you make a check list, what speaks against authenticity, it would look like this

All problems of pressed fakes from casted transfer dies, check, 100% success.
A very typical fake for these.

Now we look for thing normal for authentic coins of this emission all fail except that it could be made from silver but even here most likely modern silver alloy so fail too and that it was copied from an authenitc coin, but missing details like dotted border and different details (transfer errors) and individual characteristicas from the mother so it fails too.

What speaks for authenticity ?
Nothing!
What speaks angainst authenticity all!

Who sold it?
Maybe a fake seller, with many of such fakes with same problems.

To the other coin, it does not look good too but the problem areas are off flan so more difficult to tell and pictues can be misleading and from centering it would be even possible that it is the mother used to make the transfer dies or a cast fake made form the authentic mother. There are really many transfer errors and is really much detail loss on the transfer die fake which makes it harder to find the mother.
Pictures looks like it was sold on ebay, no professional pictures.
With better pictures it should be possible to authenticated the other coin or with a die study.



You can have such flow lines in the dies!
They will be copied from the coin to there transfer dies.
How fine the copied details like flow lines are depends on the method (electroplating or casting) the forgers use and how skilled they are.

The differences can be related to pictures which can be misleading and that even coins from the same dies can look different due to striking or pressing or different die states.

[Ken W2]

Hey Din:  There is some teasing in this post, so know that going in !  I really do appreciate your feedback and input.

"If you make a check list, what speaks against authenticity, it would look like this

All problems of pressed fakes from casted transfer dies, check, 100% success."

Uh, that's not a check list. It's a mere conclusion.

From a less experienced collector's perspective, here is a check list:

1. Diameter range-- check.
2. Weight range--check.
3. Style--check.
4. Flow lines--check.
5. Reputable seller-- IDK, but that's the most important item on this list.
6. No casting pearls or bubbles--check.
7. No edge filing or work--questionable.
8. Soapyness-- some in places.
9. Rough surfaces in cracks which casting cannot replicate-- check. 
10. No die links to known fakes-- questionable.
11. No edge seams or sprues--check, but there may be some edge work.

I'm not willing to cede this hobby to folks who have more time than I do to study the reams and reams and reams and reams of what has been published about fake coins.  If a coin passes the check list above (and I may have left a few things out, so perhaps we should make one complete list of things you want to see and things you don't), and above all comes from a reputable seller, that's good enough for me at my level of collecting.  I ask rhetorically, what else is the hobbyist collector to do, just collect pictures of coins in other people's collections or be content with cleaning LRBs ?   

What say ye about this Trib Penny ?  It's in my collection and passes the 10 point check list above, but does have a little soapyness at the neckline.

[Din X]

About transfer die fakes, here you can find a nice picture about cut off letters due to bad centering of the mother.
This is the case here too, PO letters are missing the lower part due to bad centering of the mother.

https://coinsweekly.com/how-to-detect-forgeries-4/


To make a longer check list is more time consuming and for me this is a very obvious fake that sould not fool anyone experience in authenticating of ancient coins.

It is a transfer die fakes so about the problems of transfer die fakes which are on the fake present.

The edge is equally thick meaning that the pressure was everywhere the same, which is rather rare on ancinet coins but dpends on emisson of course, too.
The edge shows this very strong edge crack typical for pressed fakes. (Transfer die fakes needn´t be pressed , the can be of course struck but many are pressed).

There is a soapyness typical for transfer die fakes made with casted transfer dies due detail loos and errors.

There are cut of details and missing details due to centering and strike of the mother and individual characteristicas from the mohter + ghost lines representing the flan shape of the mother.

There there is no visible metal flow from striking, if you make transfer dies you will copy the metal flow of the mohter into the dies but you will have no new metal flow if you press the fakes with the transfer dies.

Maybe reading the article in coinsweekly will help you.

To how to detect fakes, you list is very incompelte and focusing on cast fakes.
I made an articel how to detect the different fake types (cast fakes, electrotypes, transfer die fakes and modern die fakes) in the past and posted it to a German board, meanwhile I added and corrected some but it had about 9 pages in word letter size 12.
Of course it could be summarized shorter.

[Ken W2]

Thanks Din.  I will read that article, but the diagram you posted REALLY helps understand dropped (untransferred) portions of letters due to the mother not being centered on the receiving die.  Barring another explanation, such as a marked narrowing of the flan in that area, engraving error, or perhaps a partially clogged die (all things you would not just assume), I see now how that is an item of concern and one that probably would make you avoid the coin. 

So, let's add to the list:

12. No missing portions letters inside of the edge, potentially indicating a decentered mother in a die transfer.

Thanks again.         

[Din X]

To weight, I think for Roman Denarii of there is a problem that they can have a sometimes huge weight range which are fine for authentic coins (I collect Severus Alexander and there can be huge weight differences for coins from the same dies), because they were struck "al marco", meaning that they did not check the weight of each coin, it was only important that the average weight of them was fine, they had a specific amount of silver and had to make a specific amount of planchets out of this silver. The weight of this planchets could be pretty much different but the average weight was as it should be. I think that they looked more for the weight at the Republic and early Empire but even there is an acceptable weight range for authentic coins which can be meet easily by fakes.

More expensive metals like Gold were struck „al pezzo“, they weight each planchet and looked that it had about the weight they wanted.

If struck "al marco" there can be of course size differences, the different weight is related to either different thickness of the planchets or different size of the planchets or both.

If it comes to ancient Gold coins and Greek Gold and Silver coins the weight was of course more important.

[Lukas N]

Thank you for your scholarly and very informative replies. I was tilted to condemn it as a fake even before, based on the comments of people from Ancient coins Facebook group, but now its probably very obvious. And this site has really worldwide acclaim and reputation for its experts, so I must accept it as a fact, even though I am dissapointed from the purchase. On the another hand, today I went to the local ancient coins dealer in my city, so he can examine it in hand. He didnt find it suspicious, even when I showed him the picture of another suspicious coin and mentioned possible transfer die. But still, I believe you more, because of what I already mentioned above even though its not possible for you to have it in hand.

To clarify the origins of coins. I won mine (the subject coin) in an auction held by [REMOVED BY ADMIN]. They are certified auction house and a member of Spanish numismatic association, so I really trusted them when I bid that everything is OK. Unfortunately, it probably happens to everyone.
Second coin that I have sent for a comparsion is featured in a Youtube video on Tribute penny by classical numismatics channel. The guy from there had bought it from [REMOVED BY ADMIN]. He also provided the photo from that [REMOVED BY ADMIN] source.
So both coins come from reputable source, even though they are fakes.

[Ken W2]

Din and the Board:  Seriously, let’s make one check list of characteristics indicating genuineness and potential fakes for RSCs (perhaps it would apply to Greek silvers too). A bullet point list with a one line explanation if needed. If the reader needed/wanted more explanation they could do research or ask. I think that would be helpful to beginner and intermediate collectors alike and almost certainly would spawn more study by many collectors. No, it wouldn’t be a panacea and wouldn’t be offered as one. But, I propose that many, if not most, collectors would find satisfaction in a doing a degree of coin-related due diligence, in addition to seller-related due diligence, and such a check list would be a good starting place.

[Joe Sermarini]

With the exception of the "ghost line" partially missing letters, I don't think this is a very obvious forgery. It is not particularly soapy, not any more than many genuine examples with mild die wear.

Other than the partially missing letters the most suspicious thing to me is that it is a Tribute Penny. All denarii of Tiberius have to be examined very carefully. With this and some other very popular types, I start with a position of strong doubt.