Ptolemy IV Trihemiobol attribution help needed

[Din X]

Your help is very much appreciated!
The coin was in a lot with forgeries but looks authentic in hand.
The weight is 15,25g.
the edge has some file marks (not sharp) and a seam, I assueme this is from planchet preparation, is that correct?
The details are very sharp and I can exclude the possibility of a cast fake and that forgery make such a strange edge that could be misundersood as casting seam doesn´t make sense.
I can not find a match with cornucopiae  and opened wings.

[Callimachus]

Try this link:
https://hal.science/hal-02510731/document

The one link on the ptolemybronze.com website that might be of some help, does not work on my computer.
Learn about how Ptolemaic bronzes were manufactured

The file marks on your second picture are at different angles with the casting seam as the dividing line. That seems a bit odd.

[Din X]

Thank you.
I assume that the employees at mint did not have time to waste for unnecessary things so there must be a reason for this file marks (they are not sharp and not fresh).
We do not know what tool they have used but it is rather likely if it was a file or something similar that the file marks will be hardly symetrical on both sides, would be difficult and time conusming.

I guess that this could be weight adjustment marks on the edge, if there has been a strict weight control on this mint for this emission.
On some European coins (about 1600-1800) there are sometimes on the surface "Justierspuren" (weight adjustment marks).

Or that this marks were already in the mould, maybe it helpped that the metal is floating better there, or that the planchet they used to create the imprints in to moulds had this marks alreay on the edge (and the planchet used to make this imprints into the moulds could have this marks on the edge weight adjustment reasons.

I assume that the coin was in this replica lot becasue of the strange edge but the coin itself looks 100% authentic in hand and there is no plausible reason why forgers would rework the edge like this, again this file marks are very soft and not fresh so if forgers would apply such marks on the edge they must have found a way to soften them later and with the file marks the seam is even more present and better visible.
Why sould forgers waste their precious time to make the edge look like and makeing the seam more obvious resulting in wrong condemnation of many  collectors and dealers who think seam = modern cast fake.
To make the edge look like this is counterproductive for forgers.
They either do not touch the edge and so there will be the seam, where the 2 moulds met, or they will remove the seam for example with a file (some will later remove the file marks with polishing etc.) or remove it directly through polishing.

[Altamura]

In the article by Thomas Faucher linked above by Callimachus there is no mention of systematically filing ptolemaic flans apart from making unvisible the traces of the "runners", how he calls that.

Your coin is the first ptolemaic one where I see this (on other coin series you have that systematically, e.g. on the crocodiles from Nemausus). Or do you have some more examples?
So I think that this is more a sign of the individual fate of that coin (whether genuine or not) and not part of some mint procedure  .

Regards

Altamura

[Callimachus]

I am not an expert of these coins.
However, if, as you say, it came in a group of forgeries, then it's kept bad company.
Until you find another positively genuine one with an edge like this, I'd say the coin is suspect.

Below a screenshot from Google references this website.

[Din X]

I know of one authentic Ptolemy coin with such a seam.
A friend has sent me pictures of the edge of an authentic coin with such an edge ( and possibly with such file marks, too), he has sent me only 2 edge pictues and I do not know how the coin looks like.
He thought the coin is authentic and he has access to authentic Ptolemy coins so I am very confident that the coin is genuine.

We have to consider that these coins were minted by different rulers and mints so the planchet casting production process and planchet preparation process can be different on these coins.
We have to know the correct attribution, exact mint and ruler and then we can compare my coin and the edge with authentic coins from this emission.

I like this coin and such edges were new to me and I hope that I will learn much interesting things about this emssions in future.

In the lot was another authentic coin, Pegasos stater, but it has bad scratches and horn silver so it was unattractive and owner did not like and so it ended in such a lot.

I assume that PtolemAE  knows more about this strange edges and the correct attribution.
I wrote at facebook and hope for an answer.

[Kevin D]

It looks like the coin in question shows Zeus on the obverse, rather than Zeus-Ammon, as there is no horn of Ammon. This was the style of the coins minted in Sicily. I believe I've read that the Sicilian issues were first produced with Ptolemaic mint workers, but later were produced by an all-Sicilian staff. However, your coin does have the center lathe depression on both sides, which is something not seen on many of the Sicilian pieces. Maybe the edge of your coin will be something not normally seen in the Ptolemaic bronze 'mainstream' coins, but rather something peculiar to an 'out of empire' production.

[Din X]

Thank you all.
New pictures with Iphone camera, the colour is not right on this pictures, it is in hand as brown as on my privious and the auction house picture.

[Altamura]

On these pictures it looks to me that the filing has been done after the coin had been struck. What do you think with the coin in hand?
The reverse seems to be over or double struck.

Regards

Altamura

[Pekka K]

Same field marks are noted on trihemiobol: http://numismatics.org/pco/id/cpe.1_2.B372a

Pekka K

[PtolemAE]

Your help is very much appreciated!
The coin was in a lot with forgeries but looks authentic in hand.
The weight is 25,25g.
the edge has some file marks (not sharp) and a seam, I assueme this is from planchet preparation, is that correct?
The details are very sharp and I can exclude the possibility of a cast fake and that forgery make such a strange edge that could be misundersood as casting seam doesn´t make sense.
I can not find a match with cornucopiae  and opened wings.

The type that it most resembles is Sv 975, which is quite easy to find on the

ptolemybronze.com

web site.

However, nothing useful can be said about this Ptolemaic bronze coin without correct measurements of SIZE *and* WEIGHT. Die axis will be helpful as well.

PtolemAE

[Callimachus]

If PtolemAE reads this :

The one link on the ptolemybronze.com website that might be of some help, does not work:
Learn about how Ptolemaic bronzes were manufactured.

. . . perhaps he could fix this link.

Thank you.

[Din X]

Thank you all.
Shomehow I confused the weight, correct weight is about 15,28g or 15,29g.
I have corrected the weight in frist post and with this weight it is rather a Trihemiobol, so I have corrected it, too.
It seems like Pekka K´´s  attribution could fit Lorber B372a monogram E and P.
And PtolemAE´s Sv 975 if it is an E monogram,

Weight 15,28g
Diameter about 2,5cm and about 2,4g
Die axis 12, if I turn to side Zeus and eagle are always up.

It was in a lot with fakes (at least one other Pegasos stater is authentic) and this coin was most likely condemned due to the strange edge.
I do not know why the edge is like this nad I think that this is an intersting question, all I know is that the edge was not manipulated in modern times so the edge looked like this in ancient times.

[Altamura]

... Shomehow I confused the weight, correct weight is about 15,28g or 15,29g. ...

So we finally have some well-known type with some individual filing  .

Regards

Altamura

[PtolemAE]

... Shomehow I confused the weight, correct weight is about 15,28g or 15,29g. ...

So we finally have some well-known type with some individual filing  .

Regards

Altamura

Precisely
Once the *correct* weight and size are given, nothing unusual here at all.

PtolemAE

 

[PtolemAE]

Thank you all.
...
And PtolemAE´s Sv 975 if it is an E monogram,

Weight 15,28g


Diameter about 2,5cm and about 2,4g
Die axis 12, if I turn to side Zeus and eagle are always up.

2.4g

Now the weight is correctly reported (15, vs. 25), it's an easy one to find.
The web site notes E(var) as the mark for Sv975, which is shorthand to denote E and this very common VARiant of the E. Also not of any concern.

As noted in other posts, common Ptolemaic bronze coins often are subject to a great deal of overthinking.

That said, this Ptolemy III coin type's denomination is subject to re-interpretation in light of metrological considerations.

PtolemAE

[PtolemAE]

I am not an expert of these coins.
However, if, as you say, it came in a group of forgeries, then it's kept bad company.
Until you find another positively genuine one with an edge like this, I'd say the coin is suspect.

Below a screenshot from Google references this website.

The notion that flans were 'rounded' by 'turning' is demonstrably false; easily refuted. Were it so, the 'dimples' would always be dead-center, lined up on both sides, and the flans would always be actually round.
This coin actually makes for a good example. It is immediately obvious to the most casual observer that this coin is not round.

The 'rounding' assertion's erroneousness is also belied by the occasional appearance of more than one dimple on the same side of a coin. The 'rounding' idea lives on, nevertheless, regardless how
easy it is to see it can't possibly explain what we actually observe.
 
The flans' surfaces were smoothed by turning and occasionally round scrape marks, with dimple at the center, are sometimes seen on surfaces of some coins even after they were struck.

PtolemAE

[PtolemAE]

In the article by Thomas Faucher linked above by Callimachus there is no mention of systematically filing ptolemaic flans apart from making unvisible the traces of the "runners", how he calls that.

Your coin is the first ptolemaic one where I see this (on other coin series you have that systematically, e.g. on the crocodiles from Nemausus). Or do you have some more examples?
So I think that this is more a sign of the individual fate of that coin (whether genuine or not) and not part of some mint procedure  .

Regards

Altamura

While not universal, filed edges on Ptolemaic coins are fairly easy to find. Nothing particularly unusual. Some of the photos on the
ptolemybronze.com
web site show some edge filing.
PtolemAE

[PtolemAE]

If PtolemAE reads this :

The one link on the ptolemybronze.com website that might be of some help, does not work:
Learn about how Ptolemaic bronzes were manufactured.

. . . perhaps he could fix this link.

Thank you.

Thanks for this report. I don't believe you have contacted the ptolemybronze web master to report the broken link. Reporting it
here is helpful but the webmaster may not get the news. Alas, the link has vanished from the internet and that cannot be fixed.
Someone may find the old page using the internet 'wayback' machine but the link will be removed from the

ptolemybronze.com

web site because it cannot be 'repaired'. Over time, it is likely the web site (already over 15 years old) will outlive some of its
other educational and resource links and it will help if that happens that those are reported to the webmaster. There has always been
an email link on the home page.

Unfortunately 'classicalcoins(dot)com' is now 'page not found' for the entire domain. Maybe it will come back and we can
all hope the reason for its disappearance is completely benign and not a result of foul play, hacking, ransomware, etc.

Perhaps there's another place to find as clear a presentation of how Ptolemaic bronze coin flans were produced. It's actually not
so complicated but the 'dimples' aren't seen on many other types of coins so they tend to inspire fanciful thinking. The discussion on
'classical coins' page was a good one with nice diagrams.

There are some interesting discussions of Ptolemaic bronze coin designs and identification lessons on the
Facebook page that is associated with the web site. The FB page is:

https://www.facebook.com/PtolemyBronze

PtolemAE

[PtolemAE]

Try this link:
https://hal.science/hal-02510731/document

The one link on the ptolemybronze.com website that might be of some help, does not work on my computer.
Learn about how Ptolemaic bronzes were manufactured

The file marks on your second picture are at different angles with the casting seam as the dividing line. That seems a bit odd.

Thomas Faucher is very knowledgeable so it is nearly inexplicable why his many detailed descriptions of Ptolemaic bronze coin manufacturing methods
are almost entirely verbal prose, with few illustations and not even a single illustration of actual whole bronze coins that exemplify the methods he describes, 
full catalog numbers of coin types to which he refers, and references to some of the experimental results that are claimed to be relevant.

PtolemAE

[Callimachus]

Thanks for this report. I don't believe you have contacted the ptolemybronze web master to report the broken link. Reporting it
here is helpful but the webmaster may not get the news.

There has always been an email link on the home page.

PtolemAE

Maybe we are not looking at the same website.

I am looking at whatever web page comes up when I go to ptolemybronze.com

I do not see a link for a web master anywhere on that page. So how do I contact the web master,if that is what I was suppose to do?

It is true there is email contact information to you at the bottom of the page. I did not use it because I figured you'd be along here sooner or later reading this posting. But from what you say here, using that email contact would not have changed anything.

[PtolemAE]

Thanks for this report. I don't believe you have contacted the ptolemybronze web master to report the broken link. Reporting it
here is helpful but the webmaster may not get the news.

There has always been an email link on the home page.

PtolemAE

...

It is true there is email contact information to you at the bottom of the page. I did not use it because I figured you'd be along here sooner or later reading this posting.
...

There you go. Found it easily. Reports of link problems here concerning the ptolemybronze.com site might reach its webmaster, might not. The site always welcomes
input from visitors that may lead to improvements.

The webmaster has fixed the broken link on the site and added information about the paper, published late last year, on the connected monetary systems evidenced by
Sicilian and Ptolemaic coinage.

Plenty more work to do...

PtolemAE

[glebe]

From Reply 10 I conclude that the original post has been edited to change the stated weight from 25.25 gm to 15.28 gm.

It would be helpful if this edit was specifically noted in the revised post.

Ross G.

[PtolemAE]

From Reply 10 I conclude that the original post has been edited to change the stated weight from 25.25 gm to 15.28 gm.

It would be helpful if this edit was specifically noted in the revised post.

Ross G.

Pretty sure that an erroneously stated weight of 25+ grams led to much of the confusion during the course of this thread. Once the real weight was provided it was easy to narrow down the type in seconds. The type is fairly common but interesting, too. My recollection is that it's the latest/last Alexandria mint bronze issue with the laureate image of Zeus and it stands out for that reason alone, but there are others.   

PtolemAE