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Author Topic: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS  (Read 11858 times)

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Offline 77HK77

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Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« on: July 26, 2012, 05:33:49 pm »
Keep in mind the first three points are the ideas that lead me to reconsider this coin and are valid only as guidepost to my conclusion. (i.e. the three points might be wrong but I believe my conclusion correct)

The denarius of A. Plautius depicting Cybele on the obverse and a supplicant Bacchius on the reverse is most commonly connected to the defeat of Aristobulus II however to make the connection many assumptions regarding Platius and “Rome’s” confusion of the Jewish God are required. Some points which seem inconsistent:

 ---If the coin is propaganda promoting Plautius’s past exploits the confusion between YHWH and Bacchus is not impossible but less likely since Plautius would have had first hand knowledge of the Jewish Religion through direct contact.
---The reverse is a supplicant kneeling and offering an Olive branch. This is not a symbol of a conquered King but, like Aretas on Scaurus’s denarius, one which has come to terms (or wishes to come to terms) with Rome. Aristobulus was defeated and captured in armed conflict; a very different outcome from Aretas whom was defeated but continued to rule. Aristobulus’s defeat warranted a trophy image not an olive branch.
---The desire to name Bacchius seems to be driven by comparisons to Scaurus’ Rex Aretas denarius produced a few years earlier. If we are to use the similarity we should consider the whole coin. The Rex Aretas Obverse and Reverse images support each other in promoting a victory. A triumphant looking Jupiter in a quadriga, scorpion under foot, in juxtaposition to the Kneeling Aretas; It “feels” like victory. The Plautius coin’s images “feel” unconnected between the obverse and reverse in terms of a king defeated in armed conflict. Although the kneeling figures are similar, a turreted Cybele is a very different symbol than Jupiter in a quadriga. You can argue the Turreted Cybele is a symbol of war but it is more a symbol of strength rather than victory.

As you have guessed I reject Aristobulus as Bacchius. In fact I reject any individual as Bacchius and suggest a different interpretation.

In the Mythology of Bacchus, Cybele plays a very important role. Hera inflicted Bacchus with madness; Cybele cured Bacchus of the madness and set him upon the right path.

I’ll suggest that the A. Plautus coin is an allegorical message and Bacchius is a not a Jewish King but rather all of Judaea. Consider the turreted Cybele representing Rome and the kneeling Bacchius Ivdaevs, cured of his madness and offering peace, as the representation of Judaea at the end of the civil war. Together the obverse and reverse become an allegorical political message touting the right beliefs of Rome, which made Rome strong, bringing an end to the madness afflicting the Judean.

The Roman generation holding this coin was acutely aware of Rome’s hard won dominance over the eastern Mediterranean, the acceptance of Cybele starting around 205BCE and the restrictions place on the bacchanalia. Rome might have been feeling (culturally) a little moral superiority over other cultures in this period (my opinion). If you wish to promote the glory of Rome, it’s beliefs and strengths, and connect that glory to your name, this type of allegorical story is a wonderful self promoting message.  I believe the allegory plays even stronger if the coin is in support of the Megalesian games in Rome celebrating Cybele.

The idea of Aristobulus being Bacchius takes a lot of effort to justify why the name Bacchius was used in place of Aristobulus; this version of an allegory between Cybele/Bacchus and Rome/Judaea requires no such justification although it does requires possessing the right sensibility and perception of a Roman citizen, not always an easy task and I may have it wrong.

It is only a suggestion, born over cigars and scotch, so have at it…. What do you think- Aristobulus or Allegory?

Offline Aarmale

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 05:45:05 pm »
This is an interesting thread dedicated to this topic: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=21100.0

I feel that this individual may be a representation of Judaea, but I note that Judaea is usually depicted a female, and also, why make a specific mention of an individual named Bacchius? 

It seems, from the above-mentioned thread, that the common views of the identity of Bacchius are:


I believe that Bacchius was some important Jewish figure (who could be compared with Nabataean king Aretas, hence similar coinage) who was not mentioned in surviving historical works.
Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 06:02:07 pm »
Aarmle,
There is merit in the standard beliefs, really who am I to argue with Meshorer, however the lack solid evidence to match the name to a person lead me to consider alternatives.

To your questions: The figure could be female, tough to tell.
The province is female but the warring parties in Judaea were male. I'm considering it as a reference to the ruling house of Judaea or to the Jewish God rather than the Roman Province.

The name Bacchius could alude to Bacchus without offending the God - That's a little more scholarly question than I can answer. I'm leaning towards the name being used as much a desciptor as actual name.

HK

Offline Snegovik

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 09:44:49 am »
What do you think- Aristobulus or Allegory?

I think that the camel is female and represents an allegory of Gamilat.
Illegitimi non carborundum

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 10:36:08 am »
Very cute Snegovik

But what if the figure is female, in the absence of the Aretas image it is hard to tell with only the name Bacchius driving towards a male determination.

For our Latin scholars; could "bacchius ivdaes" be used as a tongue in cheek description. (those wild Judeans) or can it only be a proper name.

HK

Offline Ibex-coins

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 12:41:10 pm »
"I feel that this individual may be a representation of Judaea, but I note that Judaea is usually depicted a female, and also, why make a specific mention of an individual named Bacchius?  "

It is true that in later coinage Judaea is usually depicted as a female, but this was Rome's first reference to Judaea on any coinage, the link to the female representation would not be firmly established for a number of years if I am not mistaken.  So I don't think we should hold that to a hard and fast rule.


" ---If the coin is propaganda promoting Plautius’s past exploits the confusion between YHWH and Bacchus is not impossible but less likely since Plautius would have had first hand knowledge of the Jewish Religion through direct contact. "

Just because Plautius had some exposure to the Jews doesn't necessarily mean he had a real understanding of Jewish sensibilities, nor that he was particularly sensitive to them.  For propaganda purposes he wouldn't have cared if a link between YHWH and Bacchus was inappropriate to the Jews, but did the romans get the reference.  Never-the-less I don't necessarily see the link myself.

In general very interesting thoughts and observations you make on this coin. 

Ronn Berrol

Offline benito

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 01:04:59 pm »
It does look like a collaborator with the Romans. The position and the branch is very similar to that of this coin
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-66147
Edit. This link explains better the situation.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-64453
Though in the Sulla coin the kneeling figure on the left is not feeding Sulla while Bacchius Iudaeus could be feeding the camel   ;D

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2012, 01:07:52 pm »
I think the iconography of who is doing what should be compared with Faustus Sulla type RRC 426/1, where the person kneeling and raising the palm branch - Bocchus - is considered to be doing so in supplication or homage, as a client ruler, and not as a captive. The iconography is identical, the timing is identical, the die-cutter may have been the same person, and thus one must really take an identical reading for it. I show both types below for comparison. Crawford's reading of this is strictly rational - that it presumably refers to the surrender of an Eastern ruler, doubtless in the course of Pompey's campaign, but that it may be impossible to know whom exactly it represents: Aristobulus, Dionysus of Tripoli, or someone else.

I recall commenting on a much earlier debate on this topic, on a numismatic matter (can't find the post) but the comment being passed by as the debate over personalities swept past. I would advocate taking a strictly numismatic perspective on this - what does the iconography represent, and how are the legends and titles formed, in comparison with other coins of the period. Once informed by numismatics, it is then appropriate to consider historical options. One should never start the other way around - trying to fit a legend to a coin (because you will always succeed!)

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2012, 01:14:36 pm »
Ronn
Thank you for input.


One interesting aspect of Plautius's contact with the Jewish people is that such contact has no influence on the conclusion I presented in the allegory. His presence in Judaea or not does not affect the creation of the allegory, however the amount of of contact with the Jewish high priest Aristobulus or others, Antipater, Hycranus, etc does alter the probability that he would not be mistaken about Bacchius. Unfortunately we have no direct evidence of his participation in Judaea to gauge this influence



HK

Offline Volodya

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2012, 01:32:26 pm »
I think the iconography of who is doing what should be compared with Faustus Sulla type RRC 426/1, where the person kneeling and raising the palm branch - Bocchus - is considered to be doing so in supplication or homage, as a client ruler, and not as a captive. The iconography is identical, the timing is identical, the die-cutter may have been the same person, and thus one must really take an identical reading for it.

I agree completely, Andrew. As far as I know, Pierluigi Dibernardi was the first to notice the similarity between the two types, which is inescapable one it's pointed out. I credited him (though not by name) in Gemini II, lot 262.

Phil Davis

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2012, 01:37:41 pm »
Andrew,


The activity in Judaea at the time is one of the reasons I drifted towards the Cybele/Bacchus idea. The agitation between brothers had been ended by Rome, Gabinius had begun rebuilding the affected areas and we see Antipater start his climb up. The events just prior to the minting of this coin are about ending troubles and new beginings.


HK

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 01:54:14 pm »
Andrew,


The activity in Judaea at the time is one of the reasons I drifted towards the Cybele/Bacchus idea. The agitation between brothers had been ended by Rome, Gabinius had begun rebuilding the affected areas and we see Antipater start his climb up. The events just prior to the minting of this coin are about ending troubles and new beginings.

HK

Hi HK

I've no problem with investigating such possibilities. I just wanted to "rebase" by asking that those interested to consider the purely numismatic aspects, such as the iconography and the form of words. Consider the reading of the coin by a Roman citizen - he will read the person with the palm exactly, precisely like Bocchus, i.e. as a submissive person or client king, and the die-cutter could not have intended anything else. In this context, any other option has got to be more or less ruled out, because the die-cutter evidently intended the coin to be read in the same way as concurrent RRC 426, and there is no reason why a citizen would read it differently, irrespective of the history of the region. So I believe it just must represent a submissive person or a client king, and nothing else. Given that, the question of whom it might be can be explored, and the question of the form of words can also be explored. I know this is considered a 'biblical coin', but from a numismatic perspective, it is just another coin of a specific era showing an event described in accordance with numismatic rules.

Andrew

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2012, 02:41:53 pm »
Andrew,
I agree to a point. A Roman citizen would most probably read the image as an individual however...

Somewhere a transition occurs where provinces and peoples are represented by solitary figures. At the far extreme a Roman citizen during Hadrian's tenure would see solitary female representaions of Judaea.

Societies are in constant flux and I do think you must place imagery into contex with the cultural norm and activety of the period - with a little tug back or forward based on related images.

One of the difficulties here is the images immediately after this period become disrupted culturally as great social changes begin. Within one generation Portraits of the ruler become the norm
If it is a transional form there is no continuity to demonstrate it as such.

The numinmastic rules would reflect the cultural changes.

HK

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2012, 03:14:43 pm »
Isn't the camel a problem for the allegorical interpretation (Judaea on rev.) or Aristobulus, the Jewish high priest?

The camel should symbolize Arabia, not Judaea (Nabataea=Sinai peninsula in the case of King Aretas).
Curtis Clay

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2012, 03:31:45 pm »
Curtis

The camel is a problem for most of the individuals proposed!

The problem is "Bacchius Ivdaevs" which doesn't fit the images well (A Jewish god of wine with a camel and olive branch- ;)) or match to any known individual.


Given the camel and kneeling image you could consider Malichus I. Gabinius did march against him in 56BCE
The other consideration could be Antipater a philo-Roman Indumean who had been assisting Gabinius
But both don't tie back to Bacchius although Antipater does tie to Judaea

Given the Nabataen's involvemnent in past Judaean issues the allegory works (not perfect) if the images represent the whole of the region

HK

The camel problem does pose an interesting alternative: Are we reading the image wrong, is Bacchius submitting to Ivdaevs?
In a few years Herod will make his name clearing bandits out of the border region with Nabataen so there were smaller war lords in the area
Any merit to this idea?

Offline Ibex-coins

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2012, 07:57:34 pm »
I am not convinced there actually is a camel "problem".  Since this coin was really the first to represent Judaea there was no norm for representation of Judaea.  To the population back home, the proximity of Nabataea and Judaea  was not readily distinguished.   All they knew was the Pompey had gone to the mysterious east and "conquered" the region and established new client Kingdoms. Probably the image of a camel was quite exotic and represented the region and not necessarily one kingdom from another.

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 09:03:10 pm »
Gabinius is recorded as dividing the region in five districts.

I do think they had a fair but not perfect idea of the differences in the area.
However considering the Nabatean presence in Judaean affairs between 65 and 54BCE the two cultures may have been seen as the same problem and reflected in the mixed image.

To go back to the orginal post I'm considering the possiblity the image reflects the region not an individual. But that idea really only works if we consider the Obverse and reverse as a continuous image. Rome /Judaea ---Cybele/Bacchus

We have not discussed Cybele

HK

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2012, 12:59:24 am »
I am not convinced there actually is a camel "problem".  Since this coin was really the first to represent Judaea there was no norm for representation of Judaea.  To the population back home, the proximity of Nabataea and Judaea  was not readily distinguished.   All they knew was the Pompey had gone to the mysterious east and "conquered" the region and established new client Kingdoms. Probably the image of a camel was quite exotic and represented the region and not necessarily one kingdom from another.

I agree with this.

It is necessary to put oneself in the mind of the die-engraver and coin designer, neither of whom probably ever left Rome, and working to a simple representational rule set that would not be influenced by short-term geo-political developments. The camel probably means no more and no less than "somewhere hot, dry and far away". We should not read anything more specific into it.

Somewhere a transition occurs where provinces and peoples are represented by solitary figures. At the far extreme a Roman citizen during Hadrian's tenure would see solitary female representaions of Judaea. Societies are in constant flux and I do think you must place imagery into contex with the cultural norm and activety of the period - with a little tug back or forward based on related images.

But there was no time for a transition or evolution in the two coin types we are discussing. RRC 422, 426 and RRC 431 were struck within a very short space of time, they all share elements of their designs, they may have been engraved by the same die-engravers, and one would expect their designs to be read according to the same rule sets. Suggesting that the supplicant with palm might have had different meanings on two coins of the same time, because we know that meanings had evolved by two hundred years later, just does not follow. Where was the time for constant societal flux? One might choose to imagine that the die-engraver changed his mind between a Monday and Tuesday, but why seek an imaginative solution when there is already a simple solution consistent with other coins of the time.

From the perspective of the designers and engravers I doubt the type was considered remarkable in its iconography, given that several elements were repeated in an identical manner on other types of the time (RRC 422, RRC 426, perhaps others if we look closely), so I think it should be read conventionally - as a submitting eastern ruler ('eastern' being conveyed by the camel). There is still a great deal to explore about the type, and a lot of unknowns, but the basic communication intent of the reverse type does not seem to be among those unknowns.

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2012, 02:59:35 pm »
Andrew,
I would wholeheartedly agree with you if we where discussing a coin 20 years earlier or even 25 years later. But I do think the period this coin sits in is a period of changing conventions, starting with time of Sulla and reseting with the reign of Augustus.

Right in the middle of this period we do have a coin which breaks convention. The Scarus shown in the begining violated cultural rules.

So the possibility exist.

When we view the Plautius coin as an individual figure on the reverse it becomes difficult to marry Obverse Cybele image and reverse as relation either to Plautius or or Judaea. Marrying the obverse and revese- whether Roma/Dioscuri or a later Emperor/god-- is a dominate, but not required, numismatic convention in Roman coins.

We cannot ingore some conventions and embrace others in the end the pieces must drop into place. My attempt with the allegory is to match Obverse and reverse abiet I must stretch conventional thought on the reverse. I think a lesser evil than ignoring the Obverse.
I think in some manner this coin breaks a convention, like the Scarus, and it centers around how the whole coin is viewed not just the reverse. If the revese is a submitting unknown eastern king how does it relate to the obverse and Plautius?

As far as the engravers I think we greatly disagree. I believe they did what they we're told as best the could. If some one said I want a kneeling Judaea on the reverse the engraver use what he knew. I don't believe the engraver decided on the image or message but he would use what he knew he could make, hence similar figures with monor difference or a possible similar figure with different meanings

HK

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2012, 03:49:45 pm »
HK

OK, no problem. You carefully considered the points which I made, clearly understand them, and are still confident in recommending alternative possibilities. I just wanted to make sure that the numismatic reasoning behind my supporting the conventional view was properly understood, given that I look at the problems from a numismatic rather than historical perspective first.

Andrew

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2012, 03:57:51 pm »
A general question which might help the discussion:

In the period discussed how is Cybele used/viewed/meaning of on Republic coins?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2012, 04:22:03 pm »
A general question which might help the discussion:

In the period discussed how is Cybele used/viewed/meaning of on Republic coins?

Here are the coins from my site that feature castellated or turreted female gods:

RRC 39, 216BC (second Punic war)


RRC 322, 102BC, Fabia

 
RRC 356, 84BC, Furia


RRC 385, 78BC, Volteia. NB, Cybele is on the revers in a biga of lions


RRC 409, Plaetoria, 67BC


RRC 419, Aemilia, 58BC - the obverse type is explicitly identified as Alexandria


RRC 431, Plautia, 54BC (coin currently under discussion):


RRC 470, turreted figures representing the cities of Baetica and Tarraco


RRC 491 Cestius and Norbana, 42BC. NB Cybele is on the reverse in a biga of lions:


Apart from the word "Alexandria" under one of these turreted heads, not one of them has an explicit reference to Cybele or to a specific city or to Magna Mater, so the choice as to whether it was Cybele or a specific city personification has been one of numismatic convention. One could argue some of these cases either way. I don't have a view myself - I would need to consider each coin type on its merits, also considering the numismatic pointers provided by adjacent issues - but clearly from the lack of frequency this is an occasional type, and in some instances it certainly represents a city rather than Cybele.

We should also consider why not to call this "Magna Mater" which would be the Roman god.

Is the obverse type of RRC 431 Cybele or something else? Crawford says it is Cybele because, being a turreted city god, it would be naturally associated with a Curule Aedile who looks after the city, and this was an issue explicitly issued by a Curule Aedile. It would be numismatic convention to conclude that when an Aedile (of any city) issues a coin with a turreted type, that turreted type personifies the city; whether you chose to call the type "Cybele" or "Magna Mater" or "Roma turreted" is a matter of choice and may be unimportant. But the citizen-readers of the coin would read "turreted" to mean a city, and "aedile" to relate to a city, and to link the two. The bigger message is "I, your aedile, am supporting your city, please vote for me". It hardly matters what to call the personification in that case.

When Mark Antony looked after Rome in 44BC, fictional accounts suggest he had a personal biga of lions. Isn't that the same as the representation of Cybele on some of these coins?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2012, 09:35:29 pm »
A general question which might help the discussion:

In the period discussed how is Cybele used/viewed/meaning of on Republic coins?

More on Cybele / Magna Mater in Republican Rome, from Wikipedia, and a couple of statue images below the fold, both dating from Roman times. See the text in Italics below, which extracts the comments on Republican Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele

I have to say I sense a partial disconnect between much of this and some of the coin images and associations: Cybele is supposedly crowned with a polos, or high cylindrical crown (shown in the third picture below, from a statue that is not assigned as Cybele). This is not what you see on the coins, which is plainly a turreted or castellated figure, and nothing in the main article on Cybele says that she should be turreted or castellated. Yet the images of the goddess driving the biga of lions is clearly turreted, and the biga of lions is clearly associated Cybele, so it may be that the Wikipedia article (apparently expertly written) has just missed this point. Then again, the same turreted figures on other coins plainly represent cities (Tarraco, Alexandria). So I am left in some confusion as to whether there are clear and specific grounds for saying that the figure on the denarii of Furia, Fabia, Plaetoria and Plautia are Cybele or a city-goddess, or who might the figure be on the second Punic war bronze which, made in 217BC, probably pre-dates the consultation of the Sibylline oracle and the import of the cult.

The bottom line is that I do not know who the turreted figure on the Plautia is intended to be, Cybele or a city representation.

Whichever it is, I also do not know in either instance why it should be shown on this coin (other than the trivial association of a Curule Aedile with a goddess who is either a generic city protection or a specific city representation).

This is a lot of "don't knows".

Romans knew Cybele as Magna Mater ("Great Mother"), or as Magna Mater deorum Idaea ("great Idaean mother of the gods"), equivalent to the Greek title Meter Theon Idaia ("Mother of the Gods, from Mount Ida"). Rome officially adopted her cult during the second Punic War (218 to 201 BCE), after dire prodigies, including a meteor shower and a failed harvest, seemed to warn of Rome's imminent defeat. The Roman Senate and its religious advisers consulted the Sibylline oracle and decided that Carthage might be defeated if Rome imported the Magna Mater ("Great Mother") of Phrygian Pessinos. As this cult object belonged to a Roman ally, the Kingdom of Pergamum, the Roman Senate sent ambassadors to seek the king's consent; en route, a consultation with the Greek oracle at Delphi confirmed that the goddess should be brought to Rome. The goddess arrived in Rome in the form of Pessinos' black meteoric stone. Roman legend connects this voyage, or its end, to the matron Claudia Quinta, who was accused of inchastity but proved her innocence with a miraculous feat on behalf of the goddess. Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica, supposedly the "best man" in Rome, was chosen to meet the goddess at Ostia; and Rome's most virtuous matrons (including Claudia Quinta) conducted her to the temple of Victoria, to await the completion of her temple on the Palatine Hill. Pessinos' stone was later used as the face of the goddess' statue. Cybele's official Roman cult was inaugurated as the first Megalesian festival, on 12 April 210 BCE. In due course, Rome defeated Hannibal.

This account of Cybele's recruitment to the Roman cause, part history, part myth and part omission, highlights the piety, moral purity and high status of the Romans involved, the evident success of their religious stratagem and the power of the goddess herself. It ignores Cybele's consort (Attis), her eunuch priests (Galli), and the wild, ecstatic features of her Greek and Phrygian cult, though these would have accompanied her arrival. Cybele herself seems Romanised from the first. For some scholars, ancient and modern alike, the later observations and descriptions of Cybele's Galli as shockingly "unRoman", are unforeseen consequences of Rome's blind obedience to the Sibyl; a case of "biting off more than one can chew", an embarrassment impossible to undo. For others, it offers evidence of Rome's capacity to embrace ambivalence, to acknowledge, absorb and cultivate those wilder impulses that traditional Roman morality claimed to despise, or fear as subversive or foreign. Rome's cult to Cybele shows several adaptations of its Greek model. Some are iconographic; where Greek mythological representations of her processions show her standing, driving her lion-drawn chariot, the Roman equivalent shows her seated image, drawn in a biga (two-horse chariot). Others demonstrate the peculiar role and status of the Galli in Rome's social and religious life, and suggest reasons for the near complete omission of Attis in early literary references to Cybele's cult. While the various Greek and Phrygian cults to the goddess and her consort seem to have been open to all, Rome observed its own traditional proprieties. For the duration of the goddess' festivals, her temple was opened to the public. Ordinary citizens might observe her procession (pompa), but no more than that; as citizens, they could not participate in the goddess' mysteries. The upper classes who sponsored her festivals delegated their organisation to the plebeian aediles. In the goddess' honour they staged lavish, private festival banquets, at which her distinctive eunuch priests were conspicuously absent.

Catullus 63: transposes Attis and Cybele from urban Rome, back to "the Phrygian home of Cybele, to the Phrygian forests of the goddess, where the clash of cymbals ring, where tambourines resound, where the Phrygian flute-player blows deeply on his curved reed, where ivy-crowned maenads toss their heads wildly."

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2012, 10:06:52 pm »
The idea of Cybele (easier to Type than Magna Mater) was a response to the curule aediles who had responsibility for the Megalenses games - a celebration tied to Cybele.

You also see the sella curialis chair (furia) connected to Cybele in one of your examples.

I find the images of Cybele very interesting especialy the Lion drawn Biga and very difficult to interperate from a modern perspective.

I disagree that the name of the goddess is unimportant. One of my favorite coins is a Sulla - Crawford 359. The use of Venus on the obverse, his patron goddess and the inclusion of the Capis and lituus all are part of a specific message. I suspect the choice of which god/goddess  selected was extremely important to a Roman citizen.

I also think the statement  "I, your aedile, am supporting your city, please vote for me" is to simplistic of a view. This is strictly my opinion and should only be consider as such but a rising politican of any era would strive to associate themselves with an idea, philosophy, party whatever you wish to call it, and would connect to a message simple or complex.

Which goes back to naming Bacchius - we expect Plautius to be giving us a message but the obverse and reverse seem so disconnected in conventional terms.

Unfortunately my Library is weak on Cybele.... need to dig more

Andrew and I have dominated this thread ..please others are invited in...any Cybele followers in the crowd?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 05:57:49 am »
I agree with HK that moneyers would have made very conscious decisions what to show on their coins, and sometimes may have wished to convey complex ideas. I assume there would then be a debate between the moneyers and the designers / engravers about how to represent their ideas in metal, in a conventional form that allows ordinary people to read the coins. I also agree that the Republican coins of the 60s - 50s BC witnessed an explosion in type-complexity and new forms of semiology.

Still, one bite at a time. The coins had to be understandable without an attached written explanation, so communication rules are still important. The period was rather like the evolution of advertising in the 1960s (Mad Men, Madison avenue) - you can't go too crazy in your formats at the outset. Last Friday's Queen-Elizabeth-in-a-parachute and Dizzee Rascal's phone-dating medley represent to sublime perfection the England I know, but it would not have come across as a very sensible opening to the 1951 Festival of Britain if you get my drift. One small step at a time when it comes to coin communications...

I have a very strong conservative instinct when it comes to reading coins. This instinct has come from 30 years of reading old sources, and then reading something new and speculative and realising by page 2 that the writer had not done his research - he had written his new and speculative theory without any awareness of the solid arguments for the status quo that others had presented over the centuries. This instinct was clear in my views on the reverse type, where I made a case for the simplest reading consistent with the coin evidence. When it comes to the obverse, I likewise feel a need to get back to basics, but in this case 'basics' means questioning the established reading.

Question 1.
Why do we think these portraits of turreted women represent Cybele, when Cybele is not represented as turreted by any statues which I have seen in the round, whereas city-personifications are represented as turreted, with city-names included in support?

I appreciate the link of Cybele to the Megalesian games, and I appreciate the link of any games to the Curule Aedile position. But is this link strong enough to convince us that a portrait which does not look to me like Cybele, should be read as Cybele rather than as a city-goddess? On balance, the two coins with the bigas of lions, one of which shows a turreted head, and the association of a biga of lions with Cybele, is probably the missing link between the stories of Cybele, and the coin types. So it probably is Cybele, but might not be on every coin (evidently not on the Pompey Minatia or on the Alexandria types I show). This raises other questions.

Question 2
If these portraits are Cybele, why is she shown with a turreted or castellated type head-dress rather than a polos? Wouldn't it be easy and simple to engrave a polos? What bit of the legend am I missing? Are there statues with a clearly identified Cybele with such a head-dress?

Question 3
Who might be the lady with the magnificently castellated head-dress, on the bronze struck in 217 BC? Understanding this might help us understand the whole Centaur, Boar, Sol series of bronzes, where so far I've never read a coherent explanation of their types. Does anyone know offhand the date that the Sibylline books were consulted, resulting in the adoption of Cybele into the Roman Pantheon? Might all these types be linked? (I'm aware that this is a branch-road in the topic but it's a Cybele-related branch-road so this seems a great place to explore it)






 

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