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Author Topic: Bust types seen from rear - how to distinguish "draped only" from "draped, cuir  (Read 2839 times)

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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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There are few types of busts described in RIC as "seen from rear" or "seen from back"

For example this one (RIC VII TRIER 100):

With RIC VII it is easy because RIC VII assumes that this type is always draped and cuirassed.

But RIC VI sometimes differentiates two similar but separate types within the same issue: one draped and another draped and cuirassed. See for example bust types C and F on p. 386-391.

I am curious how do you deal with that problem. What is the crucial difference in your opinion and how to find it?

That's all for now because I don't want to suggest anything.

Lech Stępniewski
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2014, 03:11:26 pm »
The traditional differentiation, which has certainly already been explained before on Forvm, is that cuirass flaps on the shoulder means "draped, cuirassed", whereas bare shoulder below the pin holding the cloak means "draped only".

The Constantine you show has cuirass flaps, so "draped, cuirassed".

Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2014, 03:26:02 pm »
For those who dnt know how to recognyze vues in generally, you can find  watching the fibula position if its "seen from sideways" or "seen from back". The fibula was always on the right shoulder. Because it was used to hold the drape.
If you see fibula on the left of bust like i show on n°1 of picture its an vue "seen from sideways" and on the example n°2 so as your coin, its a vue "seen from back".

But for "seen from rear" and "seen from back" this is a good question

Offline benito

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2014, 03:42:00 pm »
Seen from rear,seen from back or seen from behind ?  ???

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2014, 03:54:32 pm »
Seen from rear, seen from back or seen from behind ?

No difference, all three mean the same thing.

Lech's title for the thread is misleading; his question is how to distinguish "draped only" from "draped, cuirassed", not the difference between "seen from back" and "seen from front".
Curtis Clay

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 03:57:23 pm »
is that cuirass flaps on the shoulder

You mean "pteruges"?

Yes, I agree that the presence of pteruges proves that there is a cuirass. But is there something else that would help? What if this tiny part of coin is worn or blurred? Is it possible that the cuirass is visible above the cloak, near the neck?
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 04:01:32 pm »
Lech's title for the thread is misleading; his question is how to distinguish "draped only" from "draped, cuirassed"

My fault. Thank you for this correction. I changed the title.
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline COINS FAN

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Ok so:

1: the drape (in pink)
2: pteruges (in red)
3: the line in red is a part of cuirass, i dnt know if cuirass is still with pteruges.

in white this is fibula.



Offline curtislclay

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Re: Bust types seen from rear RIC VI and VII
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2014, 04:24:18 pm »
You mean "pteruges"?
Yes, I agree that the presence of pteruges proves that there is a cuirass. But is there something else that would help? What if this tiny part of coin is worn or blurred? Is it possible that the cuirass is visible above the cloak, near the neck?

Yes, "pteryges", the Greek word for "feathers". (I wonder how we know that this word was also applied to the flaps on a cuirass hanging from the waist over the upper legs or from the shoulders over the upper arms?)

As to the cuirass being visible above the cloak: on many late-Roman busts from c. Valerian I on, there is a line or band on the neck above the cloak, which some people interpret as the upper edge of the cuirass. Others think it might be a cord for an amulet worn around the neck. In most of the standard works and catalogues this line is simply overlooked, receiving no mention or discussion at all!
Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Your comment about the line is particulary interesting. So here, only pteruges proof its an cuirass?

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Ok so:

1: the drape (in pink)
2: pteruges (in red)
3: the line in red is a part of cuirass, i dnt know if cuirass is still with pteruges.

Thanks. But that one was easy. What about these three coins:
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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No ideas at all?

Maybe a more specific question would inspire you.

What do you think about details pointed by arrows?

Is it a drapery? A part of the cuirass? Muscles on the back? Something else?

Lech Stępniewski
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Offline curtislclay

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Those are just folds of the cloak in all three cases, I think; not parts of the cuirass.

Under emperors like Maximinus Thrax and Philip I, only draped and cuirassed busts occur, never draped only. Busts that at first glance might appear to be draped only turn out on closer inspection to actually be draped and cuirassed.

I think that might be true for Constantine I too, however I am not familiar with that emperor's coinage in detail and have not tried to look up what the standard books say on this question. I have pulled out Bastien's Buste monétaire and would like to read his chapters on the paludamentum and the cuirass, but have not yet advanced very far!
Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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I gone search and ask. The answer is apparently:
draped and cuirassed: you have to watch if pteruges are visible.

But really it look be "draped and cuirassed" for anything from 3rd century.

Here you have Postumus draped and cuirassed, Sol is only draped:

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=608935

And we see pteruges for Postumus.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Here you have Postumus draped and cuirassed,

But seen from front where the cuirass is often easily visible.

I wonder if there is a part of cuirass (besides pteruges) which can be visible from back. Roman statues would help but unfortunately (though understandable) they are always shown frontally.

Maybe the "collar" of the cuirass on the top photo could be visible from back and represent on coins as an additional (straight or rounded) line?
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline benito

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Cuirass from back. Besides Pteruges.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Cuirass from back. Besides Pteruges.

But there is no paludamentum!

Coins with cuirassed bust seen from back are quite rare and there is no problem with them.

Problem arises when bust seen from back is cuirassed and draped.

We all agree that pteruges proves the presence of cuirass, But is there something else?

Is it reasonable to assume that paludamentum does not cover the whole cuirass on the back?



Lech Stępniewski
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Offline benito

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I suppose Caracalla was returning to Rome so he had taken off his Paludamentum.
In one of his "oratios" against Verres  Cícero  accused him of sinning against almost anything  humane and divine  ( "contra auspicia, contra omne divinas et humanas religiones," ) because he had reentered Rome in his paludamentum. And worst of all....to meet his mistress.

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
On pteryges:

I have seen them most recently discussed in an article "Fragments of Linen from Masada, Israel", by Hero Granger-Taylor, in a book I recently bought, "Wearing the Cloak: Dressing the Soldier in Roman Times", edited by M-L Nosch, Oxbow Books, 2012.

Granger-Taylor notes that the term was used in the 4th c BC in Xenophon's Anabasis (4.7.15) in a comparison of the armour of the Greeks vs. the Chalybes.  Hence it is an ancient term.

He further notes that portrayals of Roman cuirasses, presumably bronze, with pteryges are common from at least 1st c BC to the end of the Empire.  It is unclear if they were attached to the bronze cuirass or if they were part of the padded undergarment (i.e. a thoracomachus).  Much ink has been spilled on that debate with no incontrovertible fact existing to decide the issue.  Starting with paintings at Dura Europos, circa mid-3rd century, pteryges are also found with scale armour (lorica squamata).  This apparently became the norm in the Byzantine period.

 
On the issue of bust types:

Years of head-scratching have led me to the same conclusion Curtis mentioned, namely that it might be true too that under Constantine "many busts that at first glance might appear to be draped only turn out on closer inspection to actually be draped and cuirassed". 

I too have not done a full examination of the issue.  What seems clear though is that there is much confusion in the sources about the question.  The very fact that Lech raised the issue demonstrates that.

As far as I recall the question of exactly what design elements - that is what lines or marks in detail - constitutes the difference between cuirassed versus draped and cuirassed, is not discussed in any RIC volume, just the general points.  I do not own Bastien's book on bust types but I did peruse it a couple of years ago.  I do not remember finding such details in it either.  I might have missed them as I did not have unlimited time with the volume but I certainly did not find any clear diagrams.

Some of the difficulties in the attribution have already been noted.

If the only difference is the existence of pteryges then there is a risk that worn coins, worn dies or even the odd short-cut by a lazy or time-pressed engraver will yield a coin that does not show pteryges but that is still meant to be cuirassed and draped, not draped only.

What the top line, on back or front, is meant to denote is not sometime we can know for certain.  Personally I would find it hard to believe that two busts for which the only difference is that one has a wavy line at the top of the chest or back and the other a straight line would constitute different busts or different issues. 

Furthermore, efforts to determine exactly what Roman armour would look like under a cloak are hampered by several issues - artistic/stylistic factors may mean that we are not seeing an exact rendering, archaic/heroic armours, as opposed to actual contemporary armours, might be portrayed, thus the design might not actually be based on anything "real".

Now none of this prevents people for categorizing the designs.  It is possible, perhaps even desirable, to be more descriptive and less prescriptive in our typology.  In other words to break down the busts by exactly what is shown - maybe by assigning variety numbers to different forms of neckline, etc. - but not to assume that such differences are more than simply stylistic.  This is exactly what I would like to see done with respect to late Roman coinage.  I think with a lot of work it would be possible to distinguish stylistic variation from actual differences in issues.  That is essentially what was tried in the LRBC RIC volumes but what needs revision given time and the hugely increased access to imagery.

Shawn   



 
 
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Jochen

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It is possible, perhaps even desirable, to be more descriptive and less prescriptive in our typology.  In other words to break down the busts by exactly what is shown

I agree 100%. Here I have a bust that doesnt fit any of the categories. The bust of Caracalla is seen directly from the side!

Best regards

 

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