Reconsidering BACCHIVS IVDAEVS

[77HK77]

From my limited knowledge:

Question 1: The modern Naming of Cybele on this coin seems to be driven by a prior examples and the naming of the curule aediles on the obverse
 Crawford 409 which ties the sella curialis chair on the revese with a very similar portrait on the Obverse precedes the Plautius by two years and may have served as an example. In particular the strand or locks of hair down the goddess's neck are very similar. Also some version of both have a unique cross type "earring"- I wonder if this is a clue?

However at this time in Rome we really only see city goddesses and Cybele with turrets but only the city goddesses are named. So looking for other references I found the following online.

Ovid, Metamorphoses 10. 687 (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"The Mater Turrita (tower-crowned Mother)."

Ovid, Fasti 4. 181 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
“Why is her [Kybele's] head burdened with a turreted crown? Or did she turret the primal cities?’ She [the Mousa] nodded [that it was so]."

Ovid, Fasti 6. 319 :
"Coroneted Cybele [Rhea], with her crown of turrets."

Propertius, Elegies 3. 17 (trans. Goold) (Roman elegy C1st B.C.) :
“Wearing her turreted headdress, the great goddess Cybele will clash her hoarse cymbals to accompany the Idean dance."

Ovid is later but within a generation or two

The other dominate Turreted bust of this period is with the greek states- Tyche. But I don't think Fortuna would be correct on this coin.

Question 2: If Cybele is accepted as having a turreted crown than it was the right image to match with the curule aediles (city title)

Question three - I need to look and think about that one - anyone else have an idea??

HK

[Andrew McCabe]

Great research on Cybele, and on her castellated head-dress. The Ovid quotes clinch it.

Anyone who has views on the turreted head bronze of 217BC, or on the introduction of Cybele during the second Punic war (date, circumstances) please chime in.

[77HK77]

For the Obverse
1) We're comfortable it is a turreted Cybele
2) We have the title Curule Aediles
3) We have Plautius named

So we've come back to the reverse....

Coins of the period show a trend to Obverse and reverse being related.
We have a group of images on coins that are changing (potentially)
We do have a renegade coin (outside the Cultural norm) with Scarus

Two choices we are exploring:
Read the reverse as an individual named Bacchius
Read the revese as a allegory of Bacchus

Reading the reverse as an individual has the following isses:
Can't identify Bacchius - Someone who should have been readily apparent to a Roman in 55BCE
Camel Image indicates Arabia.... IVDAEVS indicates Judaea
Obverse and reverse don't seem to go together

Reading it as an allegory
The camel/Judaea issue remains but soften by considering a region (consider a Greek name, Ivdaevs and a Camel - they got everyone)
A key issue ---Can we be certain the allegory would be understood?

To consider the last question do examples exist of a allegorical image(s) on prior Republican coins?

[Andrew McCabe]

Reading the reverse as an individual has the following isses:
Can't identify Bacchius - Someone who should have been readily apparent to a Roman in 55BCE
Camel Image indicates Arabia.... IVDAEVS indicates Judaea
Obverse and reverse don't seem to go together

Reading it as an allegory
The camel/Judaea issue remains but soften by considering a region (consider a Greek name, Ivdaevs and a Camel - they got everyone)
A key issue ---Can we be certain the allegory would be understood?

To consider the last question do examples exist of a allegorical image(s) on prior Republican coins?

I still think that Camel indicates north-africa-middle-east, and not specifically arabia.

There are tons of allegorical images on Republican coins, every second coin type from 100BC onwards has such images. I agree that the allegory has to be understood. So the next step would be to examine the coin issues from 80 to 50 BC and see what sort of messages are used, and in parallel, see what Cicero was writing in his letters about what people were chatting about, as well as the relevant history books. The prosopography is important - considering the family relations of all the Plautia who might have inspired the reverse. The usual sources can be consulted - Orsini and the Spanish bishop from the 1580s, Borghesi in the 1600s, Eckhel in the 1780s, Admiral Smyth in the 1850s, Babelon, Grueber. Perhaps - as was common - the type relates to an older adventure. In the end, considering that people (with better classical educations) have been puzzling over this since about 1530, I doubt Andrew and HK will be able to make any progress beyond Crawford's summation - of an uncertain middle-eastern ruler, submitting, and an uncertain Bacchius. If it were easy, it would have already been answered.

Edit: date correction, Echkel 1790s (not 1780s), Borghesi early 1800s (not 1600s).

[David Atherton]

I'm not sure if either of you are familiar with the Flavian turreted female portraits from the following century minted at Ephesus. They are variously described as Tyche (a city type of Rome), Cybele, or just turreted female figure.

Notice the reverse legend PACI ORB TERR AVG. Does Cybele fit in comfortably with this message?

[77HK77]

David,
The reading of the coin and intended message is relative the the time, place and culture of the coin.

An image of Cybele, done close to Cybele's home region, during the Flavian era is very different than an image of Cybele done 120 years early in a Republican city Rome.

I have no idea how this legend fit or doesn't with Cybele.

I have understood Tyche to be a personification symbol of prosperity, good fortune, often used by greek cities on provincial coins. That reading of Tyche doesn't seem to fit (IMHO)

Pax might be a better choice but I have no clue on how the turret would work in with Pax
Beyond that....


We have some Flavian collectors in the crowd

HK

[David Atherton]

We have some Flavian collectors in the crowd

HK

I know, I'm one of them. I just thought what you folks were discussing in this thread was somewhat relevant to what was depicted on the coins I shared and found it interesting.

Sorry to muddy up your thread.

[Andrew McCabe]

Sorry to muddy up your thread.

Great, the muddier the better. Really this thread has metamorphosed to a discussion on Cybele and her depictions which your contributions add to!

[77HK77]

Andrew
You seem to want to push off the missing eastern king on the reverse of plautius.

I would love to try an come back to it.

I understand many greats have looked at it - however a lot of information has been gathered in the past 100 years.

I plan to continue to dig, but I am only a collector not a scholar. I am asking others for thier opinions and discussion on the reverse for ideas to pursue


What do members here think of a Jewish king shown with a camel. Is that grounds to dismiss Aristobulus?
Are we reading BACCHIVS IVDAEVS correctly (I'm not fluent in latin) are other meanings possible?
Any thoughts on other canidates; Antipater (Hellenized, Jewish, second in command)
Could it be the allegory I presented

I'm open to thoughts and pursuing them much like we did Cybele

HK

[77HK77]

I know, I'm one of them. I just thought what you folks were discussing in this thread was somewhat relevant to what was depicted on the coins I shared and found it interesting.

Sorry to muddy up your thread.


David
I would love to continue discussing Cybele, turrets etc..

Can we hijack part of this thread an start a new one???

Attached is a favorite provincal in my collection showing Cybele and a nearly matching statue from the Met in NYC

HK

PS
Just relized the Statue is turreted!

[Andrew McCabe]

I think we have visited the same museum:

Andrew
You seem to want to push off the missing eastern king on the reverse of plautius.
...

I've not yet seen any cause to depart from the standard description of the reverse (as per Crawford and prior authors), including the uncertainties inherent in the standard reading, e.g. lack of knowledge about who is the supplicating figure (Aristobulus?). I'm with you on Cybele, games and aediles but I don't see how to progress the reverse any further, which seems to have hit a dead end. So I guess I've moved on to the depiction of Cybele which is an intriguing subject just by itself.

Edit:

I understand many greats have looked at it - however a lot of information has been gathered in the past 100 years.

Possibly not that much. The basics of interpretation of Republican coin types has hardly changed since the first studies were done in the 1500s. There's been refinements on interpretation ever since, but the basic set of Roman texts is really quite small, and the scholars of the 1500s had access to a high proportion of the information base available to us today, and were just as bright, and just as especially interested in Biblical types. As new information has become available, for example from Pompeii, it has refined our interpretations, but it's a convergence with not many changes in recent decades.

[77HK77]

I have failed to provide enough evidence to sway Andrew

I struggle that the the images and names should have been readily so apparent to a Roman citizen in 55BCE ( even Adrew agreed) yet so distant from us

So back into history - wish I had more time to dedicate to the problem.

Any suggestions on clues or directions to look are welcome

[Andrew McCabe]

I have failed to provide enough evidence to sway Andrew

I am swayable. I guess the way to sway me, being the numismatic-conservative whom I am, would be to start from the accepted and historical readings (including, for example, the recognition of evident similarities of symbolism with RRC 421/426, the recognition that prior authors have assumed the camel to mean "a hot and dry place", and the general nature of coin symbolism in that specific era), fully ground us in the status-quo, and then push out from there, exploring in each specific case why a new reading is appropriate and superior. It may help the case to first explore weaknesses in the current accepted thinking prior to proposing new ideas. I'm always very persuadable as to sensible changes, so long as the status quo's logic is used as grounding. It may be good to mull over this for a while and then come back with a newly argued (and perhaps different) approach.

[77HK77]

Andrew,
 The status quo fails this coin.

If you over emphasize convention you can miss those ideas that lead to new information. In Roman coins Octavian must have been a god because 400 years of conventional coins had a god and not a ruler on the Obverse. However we have info outside of the of the coins themselves which tell us differently. Blatant bad example but you get the point.

A camel - hot dry place, Ivdaevs- a jewish connection, Bacchius- Hellenized name, yet convention claims an unknown eastern ruler.

So we have an unknown Jewish king residing outside of Judaea(we know the ones in Judaea), with a hellenized name, who cut a deal with Rome, which everyone in Rome around 55BCE would recognize but not recorded anywhere... who also had a connection Plautius.

Like our understanding of Augustus I believe the answer will come from outside the coin and    might   just    be    outside the status quo.

The allegory was an attempt to place something that was consistent, Obverse and reverse being related, into the play on this coin. Not a perfect idea but playful enough to perhaps stimulate some thought on how this coin might work beyond convention.

I do enjoy the process as much as the result and enjoyed the review of Cybele with you; for now I'll stick my head back into some study.... but will not guarentee the next idea is in the norm

HK

[Robert_Brenchley]

I found a reference in Ovid, Fasti VI 319: 'Cybele, whose brow is crowned with a coronet of towers'.

[Andrew McCabe]

Here's another Cybele drawn by lions type (apparently), and apparently with a headdress that could be cybelian. But she carries a torch and is called AEQVITAS. I'm guessing this is a case of mixed metaphors, the issuer having purloined the Cybele type because it looked good, but wishing to convey a specific message through the coin:

[Robert_Brenchley]

When Aristobulus was hauled off to Rome, Hyrcanus was left in charge. So it could be Hyrcanus' submission which is being marked. I'm puzzled by 'Bacchius' though. If it's a reference to Bacchus, why the change in spelling? The reference to the Jews is clear, so it's hard to see how it could refer to a different city. Is the turreted goddess definitely Cybele, or could she be the Tyche of some unidentified city? If so, which one?

[77HK77]

I Like Hyrcanus but the Camel presents a problem which should refer to Arabia or the wider region.
The area had been divided from Pompey through Gabinius admin so Hyrcanus's political reach was very limited at this point and associated strictly with the jewish area

The idea behind Bacchius refering to the Aristobulus or Hyrcanus as Jewish priests stems (from what I've found) from the idea that Bacchius is a named applied to priests of Bacchus just as Herculius is applied to priests of Hercules. The argument that Romans confused the Jewish religion with Bacchus is (IMHO) a very weak arguement.

One individual who did gain power at the time is Antipater, Herod's father. As a hellenized converted Idumaenan you could see the camel associated with him, the bacchius touching on the greek origins, but his is not a priest. However he was converted to Judaism (possible forced)

Hyrcanus/Aristobulus - Names fit - Image doesn't
Antipater- Image fits - names don't
Much like all the suggestions

One big key is how Plautius ties into the area. He is noted (Dio cassius 39) as a tribune but his service in Judaea is infered by past writers. I haven't found any hard evidence of his contact with any of the players. He did have contact in Rome with Ptolemy of Eygpt.

As far as Cybele -on coins of the period she is connected by a prior examples and the naming of the curule aediles on the obverse

plautius is named on the Obverse as is a reference to Curule aediles so Cybele is the best choice which means, based on convention of the period, the reverse either represents something in Plautius past, could be a relative, or ties some how to the obverse image- not likely as we've discussed

[Robert_Brenchley]

The only god we can say with reasonable certainty was ever associated with the Jewish God was Zeus . The Jerusalem Temple was re-dedicated to Zeus Olympios by extreme Hellenisers in the runup to the Maccabaean Revolt, and the Samaritan temply on Mount Gerizim was re-dedicated either to Zeus Hellenios or Zeus Xenios at the same period. I don't see the Bacchus identification working.

Obviously, we're dealing with polemics, and 'Zeus of the Greeks' and 'Zeus of the Strangers' could be made-up names. Are they parallelled anywhere?

[Ava Anne S]

I believe that Brutus was telling us that he is representative of Cybele - who is the true Phrygian goddess of liberty and the predecessor of republican virtues (tyranicides)  and
that the camel represents the Nabateans but more specifically those Behouins who had a practice of the following:
Often a young camel from another mother is introduced to the mourning mother, and shares the milk of the two mothers, thus comforting the mourning mother. If this young camel dies, both of the mothers will mourn for it. The mourning usually lasts for ten days. (Doughty, I, 369)
This practice which would have been well known was to denounce Octavian as an imposter. 
Certainly Brutus was striking his coins and Octavian his...Pompey his coins in this propaganda war.  One side is showing himself as Cybele - the good ancient republican virtue and the camel is negative - it is a cartoon that is denegrating his opposition as an imposter.