Opinions on a Nero Dupondius

[4to2CentBCphilia]

I just bought a Nero Dupondius to replace the one stolen last November.  After doing some research, I saw it came to CNG via a lot of 4 coins that Stacks & Bowers put up in early January. The lot was part of a large collection of coins from Robert O Ebert. While looking about to see what else i could find, I came across this coin from a Lanz auction in 2002. Not the same coin, but both the obverse and reverse seem to be exact die matches to me. The Lanz coin is muddier, and the features seem flatter, but can anyone give me their thoughts on the similarities of the dies used for both sides of these coins?

Are my eyes playing tricks on me? The line across the throat of Nero caught my eye immediately on both coins. After looking at the rest............well? Any thoughts?

I should add, the Lanz coin is 2.8 gms lighter

Thanks

Mark

My coin is in color. The Lanz coin is B/W

[Steve E]

At first I thought it was an exact die match, however I do see some stylistic differences on the obv. The hairline on the forehead on the second coin is more even, the nose and cheek on yours is more refined (less obese looking) Thus giving a finer style to the portrait on yours.IMO

That mark on the neck does bother me a little

~Steve

[4to2CentBCphilia]

At first I thought it was an exact die match, however I do see some stylistic differences on the obv. The hairline on the forehead on the second coin is more even, the nose and cheek on yours is more refined (less obese looking) Thus giving a finer style to the portrait on yours.IMO

That mark on the neck does bother me a little

~Steve

In doing more digging, I found this coin from Lanz in 2003. All three coins reference RIC 519 and WCN 525.

All three have the line on the neck.......and now I am left really scratching my head.

No other opinions beside Steves?

I added it to the first thread also, for comparisons sake.

I should add that this Lanz coin from 2003 weighs in at 13.02 GMs.

[curtislclay]

All three specimens from the same die pair in my opinion.

[4to2CentBCphilia]

All three specimens from the same die pair in my opinion.

Thank you Curtis. You saved me from spending more time matching details.

This question is directed at anyone. Is it possible to assume they were probably discovered together? Or is it just as likely that they just surfaced individually over the years?

 I know that die matches are common, but how common are die matched coins (BOTH obv and rev die matched?) I have always assumed this would be a strong indicator that they were originally accumulated by an owner close to the mint source and deposited together.

I just found a fourth from CNG 2004 (but it may be a resale of the Lanz coin)



BR

Mark

[HELEN S]

 great to see your new coin mark and what a fab talking point having a couple of die matches   

[HELEN S]

  please a question from someone who is trying to understand the way the coins were produced IS your coin mark a die match as the bottom of the E in SECURITAS seems to me to have a slight error whereas the other coins when stamped dont leave that small bit of metal
 hope you understand and someone can answer thankyou for your time

[HELEN S]

 AHHHHHHH this is my answer MAYBE your coin was stamped first and the error was discovered THEN the die engraver nicked out that extra bit of metal that was not allowing it to be stamped correctly and HEY PRESTO the other coins were stamped without that extra metal in the E ok HOWS ZAT

[curtislclay]

Helen,

Much more likely, the flaw on the E is a die break which developed in the course of the die's life. So Mark's coin, with the flaw, was struck later than the Lanz 2002 specimen, without the flaw.

Mark,

If dozens of EF specimens of the same coin from the same dies turn up, then one has to suspect provenence from a single hoard containing coins that came more or less directly from the mint and hadn't yet entered general circulation.

It is entirely normal, however, to find occasional die links between coins of the same type with different degrees of wear and apparently coming from different sources.

[HELEN S]

Helen,

Much more likely, the flaw on the E is a die break which developed in the course of the die's life. So Mark's coin, with the flaw, was struck later than the Lanz 2002 specimen, without the flaw


CURTIS you make it sound so simple with your explanation and again i am annoyed with myself that i was unable to suss it out myself
 thankyou for your time in explaining something which should have slotted into place but now is firmly fixed in my grey matter

[Steve E]

Helen,

Much more likely, the flaw on the E is a die break which developed in the course of the die's life. So Mark's coin, with the flaw, was struck later than the Lanz 2002 specimen, without the flaw.

It seems to me this would also explain the extra inclusion above the eye on the 1st and 3rd coins

Am I wrong to conclude that the extra sharpness also found on these two coins (compared to the 2nd) in the facial features, hair, as well as the lettering, could be the result of a retooling of the obv. die? I say retooling to mean, a cleaning up or sharpening of some of the worn features to extend the usable life of the die.

I don't know if this was a common practice or not. It just seems to make sense to me.

~Steve

[Joe Geranio]

4 to 2 , enough has been said, and a very interesting discussion on your Nero.   Curtis and others have said it all.

[4to2CentBCphilia]

4 to 2 , enough has been said, and a very interesting discussion on your Nero.   Curtis and others have said it all.

The only thing I would add (and this may be a topic for another thread) is that I am surprised to see the high variation in flan weight for these dupondius. With such a large flan weight (compared to a denarius) I had assumed flan weights could be better controlled.

Until I looked at these obv/rev die linked coins, I had assumed that flan weights were closely monitored and that any large variations were intentional. For example, perhaps they used smaller flan weights when they were trying to inflate the number of coins produced. However, to see a 20% variation within one small series of coins (how many coins could be struck before a die was useless?) leads me to believe that the wide variations were due to poor quality control. Whether this poor quality control was intentional (i.e. they didn't care because bronze is "cheap") or non-intentional (purely sloppy workers) is a question I still ponder.

BR

Mark

[Joe Geranio]

I think you hit this on the head with poor quality control, although we do have evidence as you know or may not know that Nero?   The denarius began to undergo slow debasement toward the end of the republic period. Under the rule of Augustus, its silver content fell to 3.9 grams (a theoretical weight of 1⁄84 of a Roman pound). It remained at nearly this weight until the time of Nero, when it was reduced to 1⁄96 of a pound, or 3.4 grams. Debasement of the coin's silver content continued after Nero.

Read this if interested: KEVIN BUTCHER AND MATTHEW PONTING
THE ROMAN DENARIUS UNDER THE JULIO-CLAUDIAN
EMPERORS: MINTS, METALLURGY AND TECHNOLOGY

http://www.liv.ac.uk/sace/research/publications/Ponting_OJA_JCdenarii.pdf

Since Nero was trying to find more money, I find it hard to believe his administration did not try and have better quality control on AE flans?  But; like today, workmanship and bad management was probably to blame.  

THE NICE GREEN PATINA COIN YOU HAVE IS FROM- Classical Numismatic Group Mail Bid Sale 66 - May 19th, 2004
No.: 1370
Æ Dupondius (13.05 gm). Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. Struck 66 AD.
IMP NERO CAESAR AVG P MAX TR P P P Laureate head left, globe at point of bust. Rev. SECVRITAS AVGVSTI Securitas seated right, resting arm against back of throne, holding sceptre; before, lighted and garlanded altar, against which lighted torch leans, S - C in field.
RIC I 519; WCN 525; BMCRE 342; Cohen 325.

YOU SAID, "I should add that this Lanz coin from 2003 weighs in at 13.02 GMs.  THE B AND W PHOTO IS THE SAME COIN. AT 13.05GMS.

What would be interesting is to see after the fire from 64 A.D.- 68 A.D. which is the time period of his massive Domus Aurea, if the AE's also changed, and were debased.  Time for another study?

DOMUS AUREA