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Author Topic: MFB Distribution Map  (Read 7316 times)

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Offline Molinari

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MFB Distribution Map
« on: June 06, 2013, 07:43:27 am »
Just uploaded the attached map to my man-faced bull pages.  It's a rough one, but a start.  The red squares represent cities that issued coinage depicting the man-faced bull (all metals).  Red squares with green dots in the center represent general areas where a man-faced bull coin was released but from an unknown mint.






Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2013, 07:46:24 am »
Nice. It's very diverse. A cropped Graecia-Magna-Graecia map alongside small map that shows other places might be more visible.

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2013, 07:56:13 am »
Nice. It's very diverse. A cropped Graecia-Magna-Graecia map alongside small map that shows other places might be more visible.

I'm thinking something like that soon- I was messing around yesterday and this was the result!

It is quite diverse:

Northernmost: Istros
Southernmost: Kyrene
Easternmost: Cilicia (Mallos)
Westernmost: Emporion

Taras

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2013, 01:39:22 pm »
Nice start Nick!.
 +++
Over time, it would be interesting, in addition to adding the names of the cities, even to diversify the colors of the squares depending on chronology, to give an idea of ​​how the phenomenon has spread over time.
You could add Cyprus too.
I think Cyprus coinage was crucial, I am convinced that the first numismatic representation of mfb in Greek Italy (Rhegion: http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Bruttium_map/Rhegion_map/jpgs/RheIncuse_ha.jpg), was inspired by the type of a stater from Paphos (Cyprus), minted on 510-480 b.C. (see the attached page from O. Masson, Notes de Numismatique Chypriote, 1968, and also this link: http://numismatics.org/collection/1951.143.3)
Also the Etrurian world, which was full of mfb images (on painture and sculpture, not coins), was greatly influenced by Cyprus. I know this may sound strange, considering the distance between Cyprus and Italy, but there are archaeological evidences to support this idea.
I'm working on this issue since I saw that small funny mfb pottery in the Cypriote collection of Turin Museum, maybe some day I'll be able to give you a clearer idea of what I mean.

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2013, 01:52:58 pm »
I don't know how I missed Cyprus!  Very exciting :)

I'm going to add it today!

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 02:27:34 pm »
Nice start Nick!.
 +++
Over time, it would be interesting, in addition to adding the names of the cities, even to diversify the colors of the squares depending on chronology, to give an idea of ​​how the phenomenon has spread over time.
You could add Cyprus too.
I think Cyprus coinage was crucial, I am convinced that the first numismatic representation of mfb in Greek Italy (Rhegion: http://www.magnagraecia.nl/coins/Bruttium_map/Rhegion_map/jpgs/RheIncuse_ha.jpg), was inspired by the type of a stater from Paphos (Cyprus), minted on 510-480 b.C. (see the attached page from O. Masson, Notes de Numismatique Chypriote, 1968, and also this link: http://numismatics.org/collection/1951.143.3)
Also the Etrurian world, which was full of mfb images (on painture and sculpture, not coins), was greatly influenced by Cyprus. I know this may sound strange, considering the distance between Cyprus and Italy, but there are archaeological evidences to support this idea.
I'm working on this issue since I saw that small funny mfb pottery in the Cypriote collection of Turin Museum, maybe some day I'll be able to give you a clearer idea of what I mean.


Cyprus-Etruscan connection sounds plausible.  I look forward to seeing what you can come up with.  What is a good source for those Etruscan mfb images so I can have a look?  I'd assumed there was some connection but I haven't seen anything!

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 03:08:16 pm »
How well established is the Cyprus dating?  If I remember correctly when looking at it, it was 510-480, a fairly big window.  Seems that the datings of Cyprus, Rhegion and Laus are all about the same time. The Cyprus mfb seems like a combination of the recumbent Laos mfb and the Rhegion kneeling mfb.  Also, the use of secondary symbols seems more sophisticated (or at least more confident?) for Cyprus than anything c. 510 in Magna Graecia even though Magna Graecia is early for the use of secondary symbols (as far as I can tell).

But I do like the attempt to see where a type started and where it evolved from there.  I just wonder if it could be that the type came from MG and then went to Cyprus??  But then again, I don't know the dating of the relevant coins from Cyprus (nor how firm the dating is), nor when coinage begins there in Cyprus as well.  The dating of Laos is most likely soon after the destruction of Sybaris in 510 BC.

Nick, I would like to see a bar graph showing the dates for the coinage from the mfb mints, what started when and how did the coinages overlap.  Just an idea, I also think the idea suggested by Nico of different color dots on the map for different beginning time periods is good.

Kind regards,

John

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 03:28:34 pm »
Thanks, John.

I'm just getting to the point where I can step back and examine the data.  I'm still compiling, but we're getting there and Cyprus helps.  Also, some didrachms from Gela date just as early as the Cyprus coin.  But, the man-faced bull might have been used in Cypriot art before anywhere in Sicily.  Naples and the surrounding area are later, that's certain.  But I'd like to see the Etruscan influence.

At first I thought Lycia adopted the image from the east, but they are too late and I'm beginning to think the mfb on their coinage is actually the head of the winged man-faced bull (lamassu) which adorns the city's other coinage.

It's quite the rabbit hole.  I need to read a few books on the origins of Achelous this summer and maybe that will help shed some light.

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2013, 09:57:34 am »
Does anyone have any reading suggestions for material on Cyprus, both on MFB and also in general?  Also, both sources online and in print.  My bias is towards English, although I could _try_ other languages for online sources.  Last night I read Kraay's Archaic and Classical Greek Coins section on Cyprus.  It would be neat to find out whether the Cyprus coins at the Persepolis foundation deposit, included MFB, or even just what they looked like in general.

Nick, do you think that Achelous can explain _all_ the MFBs?  Or would you rather not commit to a yay or nay on such a conjecture at this time? (which is fair given that right now you are just collecting the evidence.)  I ask because the Selinous reverses are usually interpreted as a response to the purification of the Selinous river.

JBF

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2013, 10:13:27 am »

Nick, do you think that Achelous can explain _all_ the MFBs?  Or would you rather not commit to a yay or nay on such a conjecture at this time? (which is fair given that right now you are just collecting the evidence.)  I ask because the Selinous reverses are usually interpreted as a response to the purification of the Selinous river.

JBF

I definitely don't think Achelous accounts for all MFBs.  The iconography might have started with Achelous (of which even that I'm skeptical) but there is solid evidence (PALAGKAIOS of Agyrion, for example) that individual river deities were depicted as man-faced bulls.


Taras

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2013, 02:31:00 pm »
"individual river deities were depicted as man-faced bulls", I agree, there are a lot of examples.
For the rest of the arguments, I need a little time to sort out the ideas and the material.
Guys, I wish I had more time to participate in this amazing discussion, but on these days I'll be very busy and will not have time to be online  :'( .
I want to write calmly, because is not easy for me to express these concepts in English, it takes me time to formulate them well in order to be not misunderstood.  I hope soon to have time to share my point of view on this matters.
best

Nico

Taras

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2013, 05:51:38 am »
Well, I have a little time to share some introductory remarks...

Cyprus-Etruscan connection sounds plausible.  I look forward to seeing what you can come up with.  What is a good source for those Etruscan mfb images so I can have a look?  I'd assumed there was some connection but I haven't seen anything!

Nick, I'm collecting a repertoire of images concerning this issue, I will send you an email as soon as possible.
In anticipation, I can tell you that the key is La tomba dei Tori (The tomb of the Bulls) from Tarquinia, circa 550 b.C., an Etruscan burial built with the architectural style of archaic Cypriot tombs, with a fresco showing the MFB.


I just wonder if it could be that the type came from MG and then went to Cyprus??

I am convinced that the type came from the East. Here a possible evidence: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=46877.msg550170#msg550170
It remains to determine if the vectors were calcidian sailors (Chalcis was the Rhegion's metropolis) or Tirrenian (read Etruscan) sailors. Archaeology has shown that both carriers traveled sea routes connecting Cyprus to Italy, even before the colonization of the Italian coast by the Greeks.


I'm just getting to the point where I can step back and examine the data.  I'm still compiling, but we're getting there and Cyprus helps. 

I found a significant Italian article by B. Carroccio which supports the Cyprus-Rhegion numismatic connection. Unfortunately my scanner is broken and I haven't still repaired it, here a link to buy the pubblication: http://www.quaderniticinesi.com/volumes/volume/il_toro_androprosopola_cicala_e_lincuso_reggino/page/9/


Does anyone have any reading suggestions for material on Cyprus, both on MFB and also in general? 

http://www.lycoming.edu/archaeology/resources/books.aspx

http://www.academia.edu/1471495/Le_voyage_de_la_monnaie_chypriote_archaique_et_classique_dans_le_temps_et_dans_lespace

http://www.youscribe.com/catalogue/presse-et-revues/savoirs/notes-de-numismatique-chypriote-iii-v-article-n-24-vol-6-pg-1058253

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1988_num_6_30_1916
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1988_num_6_30_2700

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1991_num_6_33_1954
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1991_num_6_33_2709

http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1317689/ (on plate XLVI the mfb)


Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 12:53:32 am »
Nico,
are you saying that the first MFB _coin_ type was in the East?  or are you saying that the MFB imagery in art came from the East, particularly from Cyprus
i am just not sure about the first assertion because Laos and Rhegion are very early (c. 510) and, as far as I can tell, Cypriot coinage in general doesn't start until c. 520 BC.  So there is a ten year window in which _maybe_ Cyprus had a MFB type before Laos and Rhegion.  i can't really be sure of that, because i don't know about the dating of Cypriot coinage, and not just the dates but the method of dating as well.  Laos is generally believed to have been settled by refugees from Sybaris destroyed in c. 510.  it's type of a MFB with head reverted is generally agreed to be in imitation of Sybaris type of a bull with head reverted.  so that date of Laos starting its coinage is well established.

i don't know Cypriot art very well, but you are right, the Tomb of the Bulls looks very Cypriot in influence and it does have a MFB.  do you know how firm the dating on it is (c. 550 BC)?  i think it is always a good idea not only to know the date but also how it was dated.  i believe that when the incuse coinage (including Laos) got going, the Pythagoreans, who were largely the ones behind it, choose types from the popular images used in the culture at the time.

Nico, i am sorry i get so wordy, i just think that it is a fascinating subject :)

JBF

Taras

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 04:04:41 pm »
Dear John, do not apologize for your questions, it is a pleasure to discuss with you about this topic. :)

Yes, I mean that the MFB imagery in art came from the East, and the Tomb of the Bulls is a clear evidence, in fact not only the architectural style is Cypriot... look at the warrior and the horseman on the frescos. They both wear the long pointed boots, typical of the East, not central Italy. I will give you more informations about this tomb, as soon as I will put some order in my notes. About the dating of this tomb, it is one of the most studied burials in Tarquinia, the dating is reported by many academic scholars, archaeologists and historians, also the Department of Organic Chemistry of University of Bologna studied this tomb. I think we must learn to trust the (reliable) scholars, we can not always reconstruct exactly every step by which they arrived at their conclusions.
I attach four samples of Etrurian MFB, all dated VI b.C. (Informations about locations in the file names)
So.. if these images were popular in central Italy in the VI century (all those who looked at these images had to immediately understand the significance), we can assume that they were so also in the South...  and Pythagoreans could very well use them, more so if we consider the oriental origin of Pythagoras (the eastern aegean island of Samo), and the Eastern influence in his thought.

Bye friend
Nico

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 10:27:14 am »
It's interesting that the man-faced bull doesn't seem to appear on any Etruscan coinage. 

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 02:02:07 pm »
I also looked at Boardman's book on Greek seal stones and finger rings, and found only one man-faced bull, dating, if I remember right, to the Classical period.  I was hoping that since carving gem stones is related to carving dies that maybe we could see more man-faced bulls in that medium as well.  Of course, Boardman was not specifically looking for man-faced bulls, so they may be more common than that.  Bulls are more common and different kinds of fantastic beasts are more common (griffins=guardians of gold and pegasi=probably an aristocratic motif).  The style of the man-faced bull doesn't match any coin.

Maybe the difference between Etruscan coins and Etruscan funeral art is that one is public, municipal and the other is private or personal?

John



Taras

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 02:37:45 pm »

Maybe the difference between Etruscan coins and Etruscan funeral art is that one is public, municipal and the other is private or personal?

John



If you mean that funeral art was public, while coinage was private... you get the point John!
Etruscan coinage had a different meaning than Greek one, as stated by Fiorenzo Catalli, the most illustrious Italian scholar of this coinage.
Evidences:
- Shortage of issuance volumes.
- Virtually no circulation, in fact archaeological findings occurred only in the strict vicinity of the respective minting places.
- Predominance of large nominals.
All this suggests that in Etruria monetary production was a private matter, linked to the prestige of noble groups, rather than a state authority. In fact types are interpretable as representations of heraldic symbols.

Regards :)
Nico

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 02:48:19 pm »
Not only Catalli. Italo Vecchi has just published a new corpus of Etruscan coinage. It's an impressive looking and massive 2 volume book, beautifully produced. I understand that Vechhi's position on some key items has shifted in response to emerging archaeological evidence. As it should (new facts implies new opinions)

Publishers blurb: (the reason the volumes are numbered 4.1 and 4.2 is because they are part of a larger series).

Italo Vecchi
Etruscan Coinage.

Part 1. A corpus of the coinage of the Rasna, together with an historical and economic commentary on the issues (gold, silver and bronze) from the mints of Cosa, Luca (?), Pisae (?), Populonia, Uncertain Central Italy, Vetulonia,Volsinii (?), Vulci (?) and unidentified mints, from 5th to 3rd centuries BC;

Milano2012, ISBN 978-88-87235-76-0

2 Vol. 416+320 pages 135 plates 9 tables, 59

Summery: Volume 4.1
 
• Acknowledgements
• Using the Catalogue
• ETRUSCHERIA (1. A brief survey of  the Rise and Fall of the Etruscans - 2. Chronological Table)
• THE NUMISMATIC TRADITION (A Summary of Scholarship in modern times)
• DATING AND METROLOGY (1. Gold - 2. Silver - 3. Bronze)
CATALOGUE (1. Cosa Volcientium - 2. Luca (?) - 3. Pisae (?) - 4. Populonia - 5. Uncertain Central Etruria -6. Vetulonia - 7. Volsinii (?) - 8. Vulci (?) - 9. Unidentified Mints)
• CONCORDANCES (1. SNGFirenze-EC1 - 2. HNItaly- EC1) • FIGURES

Volume 4.2
• APPENDICES (1. Addenda - 2. Modern Forgeries - 3. Fantasies)
• BIBLIOGRAPHY AND ABBREVIATIONS (1. Books, Catalogues and Articles - 2. Bibliographical Abbreviations - 3. Principal References - 4. Abbreviations)
• INDEXES (1. Published Hoards and Single Finds - 2. Legends - 3. Etruscan Numerals - 4. Numismatic Collections -5. Coin Types - 6. Etruscan Divinities)
• PLATES

In the first of two studies dedicated to Etruscan numismatics, the author presents the struck coinage with the exception of the male head/dog, African/elephant, Peithesa Turms, Aplu and Menvra owl bronze issues of Inland Etruria. The catalogue includes 3890 coins in gold, silver and bronze, subdivided into 224 series as follows:
Cosa 6 series;
Luca(?) 14;
Pisae(?) 5;
Populonia 141;
Uncertain Central Etruria 17;
Vetulonia 18;
Volsinii(?) 2;
Vulci(?) 7;
Unidentified Mints 14.
In addition there is a listing of modern forgeries (213) and fantasies (10).The first part of the volume I begins with introductive chapters on the rise and fall of the Etruscans, chronology, the numismatic tradition of Etruscan coinage, dating andmetrology. The second part includes an extensive bibliography, a listing of all known finds with 11 maps illustrating distribution patterns, a summery of auctions, appendices, index of types and 153 plates illustrating 2541 coins.

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2013, 12:00:03 am »
I would have thought that coins were public and funeral art was private, but Nico, what you say makes sense given
what my limited knowledge of Etruscan coinage says.  I would think though that funeral art would be, maybe not private, but personal and intimate in a fashion.

I will have to get Vecchi's book on Etruscan coinage, but I am already waiting for his Italian Cast Coinage, which is back ordered.

So Nico, what is the context for all these man-faced bulls in the VI century BC?  From what you are saying, it sounds like they were not predominant in Etruscan artwork before the VI century.  As far as you can tell, is that the case?

Nick, do you know what a man-faced bull is called in the original Greek?  The Great Scott ((Unabridged) Liddell-Scott Greek English Lexicon) gives the first example of a word's use in ancient Greek Literature.  It would be neat to find out some of the literary examples of the word.  Ovid's Metamorphoses might be able to supply what the word is for Latin.

Kind Regards,

John

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2013, 01:47:46 am »
I will have to get Vecchi's book on Etruscan coinage, but I am already waiting for his Italian Cast Coinage, which is back ordered.

The Etruscan book was published about 2 months ago. The Cast Coinage has, I think, just gone to print, so you may need to wait a little longer. The first is evidently a more academic volume than the second which is more of an updated handbook, following in the tradition of Sydenham Aes Grave (1928) and Thurlow-Vecchi (but the new Vecchi will be much higher quality).

Haeberlin is still the fundamental academic book on the aes grave series. I don't think it will ever be superseded. For one thing, many of the collections Haeberlin photographed are no longer intact and the whereabouts of the coins is unknown, so even with infinite time and editorial resources, a modern researcher would be hard-pressed to assemble a comparable set of plates. There are over 100, each 14"x18" (equivalent to 400 plates A4-size), high-quality printing on thick paper, in addition to a substantial text volume. No other coin book compares. For another thing, hardly any new types have been added to the corpus in the last 100 years, and whilst there continues to be archaeological discoveries, those from the 19th century that informed Haeberlin still underpin what we know about aes grave (the deductions may be different e.g. on dating, but we are still citing very old aes grave hoards). And finally there's the issue of cost. A new academic book of the size and quality to match the original Haeberlin would probably be the most expensive numismatic book ever published. The Forni reprint at $600 is pretty good quality and value for what you get, though I actually own a (massive) original. All in all, there's no real possibility, reason or incentives to try and replace Haeberlin.

Taras

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2013, 05:44:31 pm »

So Nico, what is the context for all these man-faced bulls in the VI century BC?  From what you are saying, it sounds like they were not predominant in Etruscan artwork before the VI century.  As far as you can tell, is that the case?


John, the context.. very arduous to describe in brief.
About the social organization of the state... there was a kind of federation, without a single center of power. Ancient sources mention of twelve city-states, governed by so many kings (called "Mechl"). They held both civil and religious power. These kings were flanked by noble groups. The monarchical system survived longer than in Greece, probably until the Roman conquer.
However, the VI century b.C. was the heyday of the Etruscan civilization.
Etruscans, since the VIII b.C., they enjoyed a strong maritime power, which subsequently became a real commercial and military supremacy in the Tyrrenian Area, from Corsica to Campania. They developed their economic and military power, taking part in the so-called "sea routes of metals", which hooked up the eastern and the western Mediterranean since the bronze age (and determined, expecially during the VIII-VII b.C., the so-called "orientalizing" period of Etruscan art). The contacts of the Tyrrhenian populations with Cyprus (probably also mediated by Phoenicians and Euboeans) are also attested by Cypriot copper ingots found in Sardinia.
Perhaps it is no coincidence that the evidences concerning the cult of Achelous (symbol of fertility, power and abundance) coincide with the period of maximum flowering.



About the mfb in ancient literature... here some examples.

Latin:

Ovidius Naso, Metamorphoses: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0074%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D1 (clic on "load" at the upper right of the screen for the original text).
Ovidius never describes Achelous (so named at IX, 68 and 96 ) as a "manfaced bull", but only describes his transformation into a "Tauro", a bull (IX, 80, 81): "Sic quoque devicto restabat tertia tauri forma trucis: tauro mutatus membra rebello." ("Then thirdly did remayne the shape of Bull, and quickly tho I turning to the shape of Bull rebelld ageinst my fo.").

Vergilius Maro, Georgicon: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0059%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1
He names Achelous at line 9 of the incipit during the initial invocations, without describing his mfb shape.
"Vos, o clarissima mundi
lumina, labentem caelo quae ducitis annum,
Liber et alma Ceres, vestro si munere tellus
Chaoniam pingui glandem mutavit arista,
poculaque inventis Acheloia miscuit uvis;"

("O universal lights
Most glorious! ye that lead the gliding year
Along the sky, Liber and Ceres mild,
If by your bounty holpen earth once changed
Chaonian acorn for the plump wheat-ear,
And mingled with the grape, your new-found gift,
The draughts of Achelous")

Greek:

Hesiod, Theogony http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0129%3Acard%3D337
He names Ἀχελώιόν at 340, in a list of deities, without any further description.

Sophocles, Trachiniae: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0195
Here is the closest thing I found concerning the MFB, however... we have not yet.
Ἀχελῷον is named at line 9, and immediately after the dramatist he describes the transformation:

"μνηστὴρ γὰρ ἦν μοι ποταμός, Ἀχελῷον λέγω,
ὅς μ᾽ ἐν τρισὶν μορφαῖσιν ἐξῄτει πατρός,
φοιτῶν ἐναργὴς ταῦρος, ἄλλοτ᾽ αἰόλος
δράκων ἑλικτός, ἄλλοτ᾽ ἀνδρείῳ κύτει
βούπρῳρος: ἐκ δὲ δασκίου γενειάδος
κρουνοὶ διερραίνοντο κρηναίου ποτοῦ.

My suitor was the river Achelóüs,
who took three forms to ask me of my father:
a rambling bull once - then a writhing snake
of gleaming colors - then again a man
with ox-like face: and from his beard's dark shadows
stream upon stream of water tumbled down.

So... Achelous μορφάω (moulded) into ἐναργὴς ταῦρος (bull in bodily shape)... and later a man with ox-like face.
Again, no trace of MFB.

I am increasingly convinced that the MFB was a creation of visual artists (sculptors, painters and engravers) who tried to give in this way the idea of ​​the transformation (how to freeze a moment of it, like the single frame of a movie) from man to bull, described by the myth (first orally, then with written texts).
Of course this is just my idea, and I can't wait to find a literary source to contradict myself.
But, if my hypothesis is correct, not only a mfb is the deity, but also a simple bull, at the final stage of the transformation... and maybe we should reconsider many bull types on greek coinage as representations of river gods?
Any comment is welcome.

Bye friends
Nico


Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 08:32:31 am »


Nick, do you know what a man-faced bull is called in the original Greek?  The Great Scott ((Unabridged) Liddell-Scott Greek English Lexicon) gives the first example of a word's use in ancient Greek Literature.  It would be neat to find out some of the literary examples of the word.  Ovid's Metamorphoses might be able to supply what the word is for Latin.



The Sophocles passage cited by Nico is the closest ancient source we have.  So far as I know, you wouldn't find an entry in LSJ.

However, there are many ancient passages mentioning river-gods (potamoi), so perhaps the physical description of such gods went without saying in ancient times.

Needless to say, if you find another ancient source, please let us know!

Nick

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2013, 01:40:57 am »
No,  I was just describing a possible method of approaching the matter, not whether it could bear fruit.  Find reference and look it up to see earliest reference.  But I also find it interesting if they never used an equivalent term.  Of course, one should not limit it to Achelous, the Scamander in the Iliad is described as bellowing like a bull.  There are a lot of rivers.  I wonder if there are any descriptions of river god statues in Pausanias?  What does it mean if they call river-gods "potamoi" and we call them man-faced bulls?  Are we missing something?  If we even figure out that we _are_ missing something, then in my book, that in itself is a discovery.

As far as whether river gods are depicted as bulls, that is a huge question.  I think that not all bulls are river-gods, although some of them probably are.  Like for man-faced bulls, it might help eventually to look at them as a whole.

Kind Regards,

John

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 08:54:24 am »
What does it mean if they call river-gods "potamoi" and we call them man-faced bulls?  Are we missing something? 


Just that they knew them as potamoi and we prefer to describe the appearance,  since "potamoi" is not well known today (unlike, say, "minotaur").  It's like describing Medusa as "woman with snake hair," but since every 4th grader in the world know what Medusa means we can just say "Medusa".

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Re: MFB Distribution Map
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 01:02:41 am »
Hi folks,

Wow!!! Fascinating thread and subject. Thanks to Nick for starting it.

I am just reading it now because I was away from my computer (and this forum) for several weeks. Two words: Spring cleaning.

As many of you know, I am very interested in Campania/MFB coins.

I was never aware of the Cyprus-Italy connection with regard to MFB coins. I, too, overlooked it - just as Nick did. And yes, the MFBs on Laos coins do look somewhat like the MFBs on Cyprus coins. Maybe there is a connection.

I had always assumed that MFBs were more localized (with regard to each specific river, etc.). I always thought that there was a general concept of MFBs in the Greek world, but the connection never went beyond that.

It is interesting that some cities (like Naples, for example) seem to be obsessed with MFBs on their coinage. Yet other cities in the Greek world (including Magna Graecia) chose to ignore them entirely on their coinage.

Meepzorp

 

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