Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Which Ptolemy?  (Read 3586 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

legio_gemina

  • Guest
Which Ptolemy?
« on: January 17, 2005, 04:20:57 pm »
Hi,
I have this coin, I think it's of one of the Ptolemy but I can't found it on the few catalogues I've got. Could you help me in correctly identify it and find references? Thank you very much

legio_gemina

  • Guest
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2005, 04:21:31 pm »

Offline AlexB

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • The meek shall inherit the earth..so buy a meek
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2005, 07:45:14 pm »
Hi

What diameter please? and weight if yiou have it?

Thanks
'Never has so much been owed, to so many, by so few' - Mervyn King, Governor, Bank of England, 20th Oct 2009

legio_gemina

  • Guest
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2005, 09:30:04 am »
Hi,
size is 17 mm, unfortunately i don't know how I can measure the weight.
thanks

Offline AlexB

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • The meek shall inherit the earth..so buy a meek
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2005, 08:41:38 pm »
Hi

Probably Ptolemy XIII (possible VII or IX) like the link here:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/egypt/ptolemy_VIII/i.html

See coin 2nd from bottom.

Rgds

AlexB
'Never has so much been owed, to so many, by so few' - Mervyn King, Governor, Bank of England, 20th Oct 2009

Offline esnible

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 928
    • gorgon coins
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 07:01:19 am »
What is the proper strategy for determining which Ptolemy?  The coins all seem to have Zeus, an eagle, and the name "Ptolemy".

I only have one Ptolemaic.  I'm certain it is Ptolemy VI, because it has two eagles on the reverse.  Only VI had two eagles.  I read somewhere it symbolized a dual reign.

Offline Howard Cole

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Elymais forever!
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 04:55:20 pm »
First you need a good guide to the coins of the Ptolemies.  Svoronos is free and on-line, but it is hard to use on-line.  You can't flip through the plates like you can in a book.

http://www.coin.com//images/dr/svoronos_book2.html

Svoronos is a little out of date, but it is the best reference for attributing Ptolemiac coins that I know of.

To tell the difference between rulers, you look at the following (order of importance in my opinion.)

1. Style of the eagle - open or closed wing, way head is turned, number of eagles, how the legs are positioned, and just its general style.  In this coin, it is fairly crude, which means one of the later Ptolemies, most likely.

2. Control marks and dates in the fields of the reverse, if any.

3. Style of the obverse

4. Control marks on the obverse, if any.

5. Size of the coin - the size of coins with certain obverses and reverses seem to become reduced with time.  Also only certain sizes of coins had certain obverses, like Zeus or Alexander.

6. Other marks, like the dimples in the center of a coin.  They do not appear on all bronze coins issued by the Ptolemies.

I hope the above helps.  At least, that is how I go about attributing Ptolemiac coins.


Offline AlexB

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • The meek shall inherit the earth..so buy a meek
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2005, 12:34:41 am »
The most obvious thing is the eagle style, stance and direction of features (like wings/head).

Also, I noted that pre-PVI they used PI head still on many issues. Did not afterwards.

Size is important.

My attributions however are often limited to being 'guesses' hence - possibility or probably used in decription. I only attribute these online as I am GMT+8 and Sear's at home!

AlexB
'Never has so much been owed, to so many, by so few' - Mervyn King, Governor, Bank of England, 20th Oct 2009

Offline Howard Cole

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Elymais forever!
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2005, 02:04:32 am »
Hi

Probably Ptolemy XIII (possible VII or IX) like the link here:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/egypt/ptolemy_VIII/i.html

See coin 2nd from bottom.

Rgds

AlexB

I am current looking through Svonoros for the coin and I strongly believe it is NOT Ptolemy XIII.  I have about four possibilities, but now I have to go through the text to be sure.

legio_gemina

  • Guest
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2005, 05:57:13 am »
Hi, I've taken a look to the link on wildwinds ... it's almost similar, but my coin has the eagle with spread wing. I tried to search on Svoronos link posted, but, wasn't east to surf it and I didn't find something like this.
I really think it's Cyprus minted. The coin indeed comes from here.

Offline esnible

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 928
    • gorgon coins
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2005, 01:01:39 pm »
Has anyone attempted a "flowchart" of Ptolemaic bronze identification, especially the typically Zeus/Eagle type?

With branching decisions for "wings open/closed", "eagle left/right", "centration dimple/nodimple"?

Offline Howard Cole

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Elymais forever!
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2005, 05:21:51 pm »
First a reply to  legio_gemina.  I also feel that it is from Cyprus.  Second, yes the web site with Svoronos is hard to use.  I had to print out the whole web site and put it in a binder.  It is a lot eaiser to look at the plate that way.

Second, a reply to Ed.  I don't think it is possible to do a flow chart.  There are just too many details that become important and way too many similar coins.  

The reason why I don't think the coin is Ptolemy XII is because his coins, with Zues and an eagle, always have control marks in the field.  This coin does not have control marks.

Offline AlexB

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • The meek shall inherit the earth..so buy a meek
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2005, 10:17:44 pm »
Look forward to resolution on this!

 ;D
'Never has so much been owed, to so many, by so few' - Mervyn King, Governor, Bank of England, 20th Oct 2009

Offline Howard Cole

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Elymais forever!
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2005, 10:06:56 pm »
I had some time to look through Svoronos.  The coin is a lot earlier than I thought.  It is Svoronos 417.  This coin was issued by Ptolemy II.

Here is Svoronos description.
Diademed and horned Ammon head r., with flower over forehead, dotted border (remember it is Zeus-Ammon).

Rev: :Greek_Pi_2:TO:Greek_Lambda:EMAIOY  on left, BA:GreeK_Sigma:I:Greek_Lambda:E:Greek_Omega::GreeK_Sigma: on right, eagel with spread wings standing left on thunderbolt, dotted border.

These usually have control letters, except for the series that follow after the description on pages 59 and 60.  Your coin is on plate 29a.

Offline AlexB

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • The meek shall inherit the earth..so buy a meek
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 11:08:03 pm »
Well done Howard, I stand corrected. At  least 'we' got there in the end.

 :D

Rgds

AlexB
'Never has so much been owed, to so many, by so few' - Mervyn King, Governor, Bank of England, 20th Oct 2009

legio_gemina

  • Guest
Re:Which Ptolemy?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2005, 06:03:42 pm »
Thanks all guys!

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity