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Author Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina  (Read 139088 times)

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Offline curtislclay

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2005, 12:08:14 pm »
      From style, fabric, surfaces, deposits, and from comparison with the other pieces in your collection, I would not hesitate to declare your monneron piece "clearly authentic".
Curtis Clay

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2005, 02:25:11 pm »
From style, fabric, surfaces, deposits, and from comparison with the other pieces in your collection, I would not hesitate to declare your monneron piece "clearly authentic".
I managed to win some auctions and have some coming to me soon.  I am glad they are "clearly authentic."  We don't need good fakes on the market.  I look forward to putting mine under the scope.  I do expect I will agree with Curtis.  I don't think I have ever disagreed with him on anything.  Yet, I will still be relieved when I see the monneron supply of this hoard dwindle.  Even if I am looking at coins in hand that are clearly authentic, I’m not sure I will be able to dispel 100% of my lingering doubt.   
 
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Offline Varangian

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2005, 02:38:03 pm »
Thanks, Curtis!  I truly appreciate you taking a look.

hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2005, 05:14:32 pm »
An ill-informed auxilliary might be tempted to say to some ' I told you so' (a legionnary never would of course!).

Sorry for the profit level Varangian but I did not dictate that, in fact overall on the 'monneron' sales I barely broke even.

I'm sure that the buyers of these coins will be better able to judge their authenticity as I (in my own ill-informed way) and others have by seeing them 'in the flesh'. They will see that the 'monneron' patination is just a sloppily applied cover to sloppily cleaned coins and should not be taken as a definitive indication that these coins are fake.

My opinion is that the coins of Arelate issue should not be dismissed as being fakes either. They display the same carachteristics as Varangians Sarmatia and there are no indications (from close inspection) that the fabric of these coins are in any way different.

I gave an example on page 4 of an Arelate issue and discussed its fabric and its treatment. I have read nothing on this post that has been based on factual evidence rather than opinion that has changed my mind on this coin or the others.






Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2005, 05:43:15 pm »
OK, so we have Barry Murphy and Jeff Clark saying their fake. We also, on the other hand, have Curtis saying that at least one of them is genuine. Fine, the Sarmatia Devictas are genuine, until proven otherwise. But what about the campgates? There's die/"lettering" matches. Are these genuine too? Are they just the authentic ancient rendering of the very nearly exact same legend by an experience hand? This thread has confused me, and I'm sure a few other members to the point where we'll just use our own judgement when buying from this dealer, which we may choose to do. This thread needs some sort of cap. What's fake? What's not? Obviously the patinas are all fake, but beyond that?

Evan

Offline Varangian

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2005, 06:02:48 pm »
An ill-informed auxilliary might be tempted to say to some ' I told you so' (a legionnary never would of course!).

I was hoping you wouldn't pipe in with something like that.  Some very knowledgable people with a lot of experience and expertise have declared against the monnerons, our host included.  I posted to give more information than just some quickie dealer pics, in the hope of bringing us all closer to the truth.  Apparently, not all of the coins sold by monneron are fakes.  That doesn't mean they are all genuine.

The most important thing, I think, is to reach a consensus based on information gathered by handling the coins.  I haven't seen anything glaringly wrong with the Devictas, but some of the others I wouldn't touch with your 3 meter pole, much less mine.

If there has been a dump of high-quality forgeries mixed with genuine coins, it's important to dig out the bad ones.  Because they are out there now, and others will be buying them, cleaning them, and spreading them around as you did.  I bought mine and had no clue it was a monneron.






hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2005, 07:16:40 pm »
You're right it was a little cheap following on the lead from others and that is not what I'm about. It was statements such as these that drew me to this site in the first place. Ignore my comments please.

I agree and have consistently stated that the best way to resolve this is consideration of the facts and the best way to achieve this is through handling of the coins.

I do not profess to be the expert in any way on this or any other matter, all that I know is that I have a not too inconsiderable knowledge of these types and have personally handled 27 monneron coins, 20 that I have purchased and 7 that were forwarded due to a posting mix up. I can comment on these and these alone and I can only provide information on those purchased, handled and inspected which do not deviate in make up from the criteria that you have applied. This includes the issues of Arelate.

The point of "how can we tell when the patina is removed if it is a 'monneron' ?" probably says a great deal about these coins in itself.

Massanutten

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2005, 07:18:36 pm »
And that was finely stated!  NO MORE JUSTIFICATIONS AND EGO REPAIR NEEDED!!!  The path to be travelleled here is to reach the truth about these coins!!  Hard enough in a forum where little is known about most of us other than words in hyperspace.  I for one look forward to the journey and the honest exchange of knowledgable people (NOT ME!) in getting to the truth about these coins!!  I hope to God(s) that this is where this thread will continue.......
Best regards (and smiling), Bob

Massanutten

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #158 on: May 08, 2005, 10:17:18 am »
  The question still remains on coins other than the Sarmatia and I will drag this campgate out one more time.  Ignoring the faked patina which has already been addressed and does not I believe need further discussion, this coin in the recent discussions was suspiciously linked to another by the near perfect copy of the reverse legend.  Unfortunately, an old post that was removed, but (if memory serves) was posted by Arles, indicated that the doors were suspect in that they were hatched rather than dotted.
   I have some 200 campgates in my collection, but anyone familiar with my habit, knows that I am a generalist and do not specialize by a single mint.  I would like to move this one out of the black cabinet, but will not not until I feel that the condemnation is undeserved. 
   On one other small (?) point, I performed a very light mechanical cleaning to the coin.  I would like to remove the faked patina completely, but do not want to ruin the coin.  Perhaps if hooverman (u have a wonderful sense of humor picking that name) would tell me here or in a PM, I'll have it cleaned and repost the pic for a better view.  Of course I would appreciate the advise of anyone else who knows how to do it professionally.
   Anyway, here is the coin (again).  Fake or true?
Bob

Offline Federico M

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #159 on: May 08, 2005, 10:37:06 am »
Bob,

I'm skeptical about the fact that the patina of your coin is fake. In any case, it does not look very similar to other fake patinas from monneron.
This difference may be due to a different kind of photo, but I do not think so: do you still have the image of the auction?

I would not remove the patina, because I think it may be authentic, but I would simply try to wash the coin with water, soap and a toothbrush... If the patina is genuine, you'll do no damages (providing that you are gentle enough), if it is fake like the others, I think that the green stuff will start to go away simply with this initial cleaning...

Federico

PS
I'm not saying that, in general, fake patinas can be removed with soap, but that I think that some of these fake patinas look a superficial green stuff, weak enough to come away with a toothbrush...

Offline Diederik

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #160 on: May 08, 2005, 10:46:40 am »
Your coin seems to have (partly) an original patina over which some greenish varnish(?) has been put. You could try 'thinner' which solves almost anything and is harmless to the original material/patina.
I could myself get away with the Monneron patina by brushing it gently with a soft brush with a wax/terps solution.

Frans

Massanutten

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2005, 07:04:19 pm »
Federico,
   Sorry, I've been preoccupied with another of the Constantine clan.  The original auction picture (unless I'm having another brain f*rt) is shown on reply #15 by Wolfgang on pg. 1 of this thread.
Rupert,
   I have slid the coin closer to the door of my black cabinet.
Frans,
   Not sure if I understand.....terps=terpentine?  Wax=?   Thinner=streight up paint thinner (not terpentine)?
Bob

Arles

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2005, 07:35:20 pm »
Hi Bob,
    I wasn`t the one who questioned the style of the doors on your coin. I have been trying to compile a list of all the different door styles, currently know of approximately 25 different types, of which the type such as your coin has is actually fairly common, so definitely not out of the ordinary in that regard.
Keith

Massanutten

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #163 on: May 08, 2005, 07:59:36 pm »
 Sorry Keith,
     But with the original posts gone I had to rely on memory which is not as sharp as once.....  ???
Bob

Offline Federico M

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2005, 06:02:26 am »
Federico,
   Sorry, I've been preoccupied with another of the Constantine clan.  The original auction picture (unless I'm having another brain f*rt) is shown on reply #15 by Wolfgang on pg. 1 of this thread.

Bob,
   I'm not expert enough to say I'm sure this coin is genuine, but I would suggest to slid it even a bit more "closer to the door" of your "black cabinet".
As Joe said already in the first page of this discussion "I am not sure that last coin posted is fake.  It does have a better patina than the first group." And I would add that Stickman proved that the possible die match found by Wolfgang is almost perfect, but not a real match: even in the case other coins were fake (and I'm not at all sure of that!) your own could have been an initial prototype copied by the engraver or something like that.

Federico

Massanutten

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2005, 08:18:10 am »
Federico,
    The condemnation grew with the pages of this thread.....however, I have moved it a tad closer to the door.
Bob

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2005, 09:18:50 am »
My monneron arrived yesterday. I'll give my impressions / opinion below, but first the photos.

Here's the original auction photo, for comparison with a larger in-focus picture I just took myself.

Ben

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2005, 09:20:27 am »
Here's larger pictures of both sides, but still scaled down to 800 pix width to keep within board limits.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #168 on: May 10, 2005, 09:39:31 am »
Well, I have to say that in-hand, and upon consideration, I think the coin is genuine.

Certainly the last thing it appears to be is a struck fake.

My first impression was that it might be a cast fake given some apparent softness of features, the surface texture (emphasized by traces of patina in the tiny surface defects), and the shallow relief of the devices. However, on closer inspection the edge of the coin (not shown - but I'll take a photo if doubts remain) looks convincing with a slightly "layered" appearance that seems to be indicative of struck coins and is missing from a cast procopius (ex. romanseller) that I have, and there are some convicing micro cracks at the edge (some visible in above photos) that also appear to rule out a cast. The low profile of the devices, given the lack of major wear, does appear a bit odd, but there are places such as Sol's crown where there is greater height (esp. good to see on a region of fine detail).

The patina of the coin seems very convincing (although the traces of patina left in the tiny surface defects looks a bit odd, especially on the original auction picture), and under magnification it appears that the coin has generally been slightly over cleaned as can be seen on the obverse legend in the 12-3 o'clock region.

The style of the coin is absolutely correct for this mint/date/type - I'd be amazed if anyone could cut a fake die so convincing.

So, all told, I'm all but certain that it's genuine. Any doubts remaining come from the dubious provenance and yet-to-be totally exonerated company it keeps, rather than the coin itself.

I of course welcome all opinions, whether in agreement or otherwise.

Ben

Offline Hydatius

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2005, 10:06:55 am »
I agree that it looks completely genuine.
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Offline Federico M

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #170 on: May 10, 2005, 10:56:14 am »
My first impression was that it might be a cast fake given some apparent softness of features, the surface texture (emphasized by traces of patina in the tiny surface defects), and the shallow relief of the devices. However [...]

I completely agree about all and every point of your analysis about the coin appearance. In particular I shared at first glance your doubts about casting and I agree about your answers.

Unfortunately I'm not able to comment about the style (I could say: "it looks ancient" or "doesn't appear suspicious for this time period" or obvious things like these, but I'm not able to discriminate between mint styles and so on), and I know this is a major limit in this discussion :(

Regards,
Federico

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #171 on: May 10, 2005, 11:17:40 am »
I have handled many dozens of coins from this period from this mint and cannot see anything wrong with the coin from a stylistic point of view.
Regards,
Martin

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #172 on: May 10, 2005, 12:26:38 pm »
I have five monneron "fakes" in my gallery. In my opinion (for what it is worth) they are genuine, with no reason to doubt them at all.

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #173 on: May 10, 2005, 01:07:59 pm »
I have trouble with some of the campgates and rarer issues, but the more common types don't cause me much concern anymore. I await Joe's and perhaps Jeff's opinion.

Evan

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #174 on: May 10, 2005, 01:17:32 pm »
Well I knew my opinion did not count, but David Sear also found no reason to suspect my campgate.

 

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