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Author Topic: Auction copyright of photographs  (Read 3736 times)

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flower

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Auction copyright of photographs
« on: March 12, 2008, 11:59:45 am »
Just read that eBay are going to take copyright ownership of photographs posted on the website. They also say that they will prosecute or take action against any other party who uses them without permission. Does this mean FORVM will not be able to use the pictures for the fake reports if this comes about. Unless they get permission first.....I wonder!!!!

Offline Mark Z

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 12:21:41 pm »
Just read that eBay are going to take copyright ownership of photographs posted on the website. They also say that they will prosecute or take action against any other party who uses them without permission. Does this mean FORVM will not be able to use the pictures for the fake reports if this comes about. Unless they get permission first.....I wonder!!!!

Well, taking into account their professed abhorance of any kind of fraudulent selling, they would be hard-pressed to REFUSE to permit Forum or any other website to publish pics of fake coins.

mz

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 03:37:26 pm »
Shhhhh.   Pics from eBay?  What pics from eBay?
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Offline Will Hooton

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 03:41:29 pm »
Shhhhh.   Pics from eBay?  What pics from eBay?

 ;D ;D ;D Class!!

Offline commodus

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2008, 07:04:20 pm »
Hmmmm... That should be problematic for them. This a vague and thorny area of copyright law, at least in the US.
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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 07:13:24 pm »
Ebay would be totally screwed on legal grounds if they attempted to stop their use in the fake reports, they are the very definition of "fair use".

Steve

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2008, 07:29:19 pm »
Ebay would be totally screwed on legal grounds if they attempted to stop their use in the fake reports, they are the very definition of "fair use".

Steve

Yes, certainly fair use. 
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Offline Bamba123

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 09:49:07 pm »
Exactly how are they going to claim ownership of a photo I take and use to sell a coin?  It seems they have no vehicle to transfer ownership of the photo to themselves.
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Offline Reid Goldsborough

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 09:53:35 pm »
The cynic in me would say that eBay is just trying to use legal threats to cut down on people legally using under the fair use doctrine photos of counterfeits that get sold as authentic coins on eBay that tarnish eBay's reputation. I think the cynic is right in this case. <g> It's not only coins of course.
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Offline Ilya Prokopov

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 06:31:01 am »
This is obscene.
I suppose that according to each country's law the attempt in cheating what actually is the fake coin selling automatically makes senseless the idea of covering behind the copyright.
 
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Offline Laetitia

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 09:03:09 am »
Hmmm.  Interesting.  Only this morning I was reading an article about rights grabbing in regards to photography competitions (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=742439).  It seems to be coming more common in competitions (you have to read the terms and conditions very carefully) and maybe other companies are following suit.

Out of curiosity, where did you read about this Flower?  I can't find an announcement on ebay.co.uk

Offline Bill S

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2008, 10:17:33 am »
eBay would not be able to copyright pictures without the permission of the owners of those pictures.  That could be done by inserting a clause in the contract that eBay sellers must agree to - something to the effect that all pictures become the property of eBay.  But since that could discourage sellers and reduce income to eBay, I doubt they'd want to make a big deal out of it.

Where was this announcement posted?  Was it directly from eBay?

Another person mentioned that it was becoming more common in photo contests - but actually that's been a common practice for a long time.  It's one of the scams by which some magazines acquire photo archives at low cost.  They hold photo contests, all submissions become property of the magazine.  They pay nominal prizes to a few top winners, and acquire a large collection of free or low-cost pictures.

eBay certainly doesn't need an archive of low quality pictures of trivial items, so more likely their advantage would be to try to stop criticism and negative publicity regarding their practices.  The resistence they are likely to run into would be from sellers who use their own stock advertising photos, banners and letterheads, etc.  Allowing eBay to acquire ownership and copyright would prevent the sellers from publishing their own catalogues and advertising.

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2008, 11:14:26 am »
BTW, this is from this discussion boards registration agreement:

By posting on FORVM's discussion board, adding an article or updating an article on NumisWiki, or uploading pictures to FORVM's gallery and fake coin reports, you are also agreeing that FORVM may use your images or text in articles published by FORVM.  You are also agreeing, unless specifically restricted in the post, gallery description or picture description, that FORVM may grant permission to others to use the images or text.  If we can determine who posted the image or text, we will extend credit to that individual.   

The intent is to allow us to use photos or text in NumisWiki articles and to share with worthwhile projects (usually educational).  We redirect requests from others to the materials creator but if the request comes back to us because they couldn't get an answer, if the cause is worthwhile, we may say OK.   
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wazan

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 12:08:36 pm »
BTW, this is from this discussion boards registration agreement:

By posting on FORVM's discussion board, adding an article or updating an article on NumisWiki, or uploading pictures to FORVM's gallery and fake coin reports, you are also agreeing that FORVM may use your images or text in articles published by FORVM.  You are also agreeing, unless specifically restricted in the post, gallery description or picture description, that FORVM may grant permission to others to use the images or text.  If we can determine who posted the image or text, we will extend credit to that individual.   

The intent is to allow us to use photos or text in NumisWiki articles and to share with worthwhile projects (usually educational).  We redirect requests from others to the materials creator but if the request comes back to us because they couldn't get an answer, if the cause is worthwhile, we may say OK.   

Thank you useful information

Offline Wolfpack

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2008, 12:44:01 pm »
Ebay would be totally screwed on legal grounds if they attempted to stop their use in the fake reports, they are the very definition of "fair use".

Steve

+1
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flower

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2008, 01:53:42 pm »
It never mentioned anywhere in the article this was about coins. It just said submitted photographs in general to the eBay site will become the property of Ebay and any unauthorised use will be open to court action. It appears that ebay can do whatevcer they like. We have laws in the UK against monopoly practices to promote fair trade ect ect. eBay in certain instances dictate that to sell certain items you can ONLY accepy paypal as a means of payment. This means more funds in their accounts. If you dont like that well its simple, dont use eBay. Now eBay is stating that sellers must agree that any submitted picture to the site becomes eBay property and as such they will protect the rights of the pictures in court if need be and or by taking other legal action. So sellers have a choice again, if they dont wish ebay to own the rights to the picture, simple...dont sell on ebay. Now if this comes about and FORVM uses ebay pictures for any use they may face a legal challenge. Now Joe may scoff and try to turn this into a joke , quote 'what ebay pictures'....I bet he wont relish a court challenge to him using them....

Offline commodus

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2008, 02:20:58 pm »
One wonders WHY ebay wants rights to sellers' photos in the first place.
Regardless, I seriously doubt that such a clause is enforcable to begin with. However, US law provides for "fair use" of copyrighted material and the posting of images on the discussion baord is just that. No profit is being made nor is ebay being denied any. It would be ridiculous for ebay to challenge such use in court as they would surely lose. I rather doubt they would do so anyway.

An aside: judging from flower's past postings and his generally defensive position regarding fakes and fake sellers, why do I suspect he relishes the idea of ebay attempting to remove such images from the fake discussion board???
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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2008, 02:28:11 pm »
Quote from: commodus on March 13, 2008, 02:20:58 pm
It would be ridiculous for ebay to challenge such use in court as they would surely lose. I rather doubt they would do so anyway.
Legal matters don't have to go to court though for a result though, and plenty of entities would cave into a "cease and desist or we set our Rottweillers onto you" letter even when they would win a case in practice, just to avoid the cost and hassle.

Steve

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2008, 02:33:02 pm »
Steve is right. However, much of the time a cease and desist or demand letter isn't worth the paper it is written on or the cost of the postage used to send it and if the recipient is in the right and both sender and recipient know this, it is highly unlikley the matter will go further than the wastebasket or shredder said letter rightly ends up in.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

flower

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2008, 02:49:21 pm »
Quote
BTW, this is from this discussion boards registration agreement:

By posting on FORVM's discussion board, adding an article or updating an article on NumisWiki, or uploading pictures to FORVM's gallery and fake coin reports, you are also agreeing that FORVM may use your images or text in articles published by FORVM.  You are also agreeing, unless specifically restricted in the post, gallery description or picture description, that FORVM may grant permission to others to use the images or text.  If we can determine who posted the image or text, we will extend credit to that individual.

Very nice Forvm rules.....But the images Forvm uses are not the property of the forvm. Yes, the majority of images are of counterfiet or fake ancient coins but these images at the moment are the property of the seller ond most certainly not forvm.

I was selling a few coins on the auction site in question. These coins were replicas. I ticked the replica box stating so. But this wasnt good enough for some members of this forvm. I was told that some members of this group dont like the selling of any replica coin even if marked copy or other. This is because the coin may well end up being doctored and re sold at a later date as a genuine. I was told (not asked) that my pictures will be used in Forvm fake gallery. Note, I wasnt asked if my pictures could be used, I was told they would be used.  Thanks for asking me. They were my property and they were used without my consent. If I had been asked I may well have said yes. So, yes its a good idea if peoples pictures and property rights were protected. This forvm is using and publishing peoples photographs without consent.

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2008, 02:57:18 pm »
That is a particularly inane viewpoint.

If the attitude was that the sellers of fakes and reproductions had to consent to the use of their images for the fake reports to be used then those reports would consist only of coins offered for sale by honest dealers who had been conned and were willing to admit their error, and a small proportion of replicas.  The fake reports would be next to useless.   Or is that your desire, are you much happier with the idea that more bidders would be confused into thinking your replica auctions were real if the fake reports on your coins didn't exist?

Steve

Offline commodus

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2008, 03:02:43 pm »
Thank you for verfying my suspicions, Flower.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

flower

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2008, 03:09:08 pm »
No need to thank me commodus, its not a problem........

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2008, 03:14:38 pm »
They were my property and they were used without my consent. If I had been asked I may well have said yes. So, yes its a good idea if peoples pictures and property rights were protected. This forvm is using and publishing peoples photographs without consent.

Thank you. I would be quite happy for the moderator to just remove my ebay user ID. I do have quite a few of these 'coins' and was hoping to sell them on eBay in the future. I do understand that a buyer may decide to sell these off as genuine in the future in which case I have no objection whatsoever for the pictures to be used in the fake reports to help with the problem.
I apologise if I firstly came across as abrupt but was quite shocked when I saw my user ID being branded about along with the other known  criminals.
Thank you

Anyway, you consented.

flower

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Re: Auction copyright of photographs
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2008, 03:20:39 pm »
Quote
If the attitude was that the sellers of fakes and reproductions had to consent to the use of their images for the fake reports to be used then those reports would consist only of coins offered for sale by honest dealers who had been conned and were willing to admit their error, and a small proportion of replicas.  The fake reports would be next to useless.

Dont think your big enough to think this is aimed solely at this forvm. it isnt...All that is proposed is that ebay sellers photographs will not be used by a third party for any reason without permission from eBay who will hold ownership of the said pictures or images.

I wasnt asked if my images could be used by forvm. I was told they would be used even without my consent. I am just small fry and I will applaud if a large organisation took it upon itself to close down or penalise ANY organisation that steamrollers right over peoples rights.

Oh yes commodus, lets get this right. I wasnt selling replica coins and stating or suggesting they were genuine. I was stating they were replicas but this wasnt good enough for some forvm members. They wanted me to stop selling them no matter what....

eBay will win. They never really lose. They will have reasons for wanting ownership of images and they will have reasons for taking action against unauthorised use of such images. The fake gallery on here is full of illegally copied images, there for all the world to see. Time is running out Joe.....

 

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