Author Topic: Abstract (Read 5070 times)

Simon · « **on:** January 12, 2004, 09:39:41 pm »

These coins are really beautiful, perhaps this is not the best example but it is my first. John VIII Stavraton , 1423-1448 AD one of the last of the Roman Byzantine Empire. The style became completely abstract. Chris Connell has a nicely illustrated break down of the Christ portrait. 3 Circles, 2 Semicircles, 30 lines. You can see the drawing in W Sayles Ancient Coin collecting #5 Romaion .

Simon · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2004, 09:41:58 pm »

And the other side. It is intersting to see the evolution of Art in the Empire.

Simon · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2004, 10:17:22 pm »

Better Photo

Simon · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2004, 11:07:22 pm »

and the rev.

vercingetorix · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2004, 11:30:02 am »

A sad example of what became the old powerful Roman Empire. Who cares about the details on coins when your capital is under siege...?

Simon · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2004, 07:45:07 pm »

Maybe the strike and execution but not the design. It is the evolution of art and philosophy.

Spirtualism, Teachings of Plotinus 250 AD. Beauty is complete simplicity.

These coins are wonderfull pieces of abstract art. Made from a controlled design for the Christ obverse. Yeah it was the end of the empire but the art on the coin was still purposefull and controlled.

vercingetorix · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2004, 03:49:26 am »

Byzantine art didn't die along with the empire. It survived and it does today in Balkanic countries especially in the orthodox church. Its influence is very very powerful and that's how the theory Byzance apres Byzance appeared in historiography.

LordBest · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:36:00 am »

And in Russian icons specifically. Some of them look just like mosaics and paintings in Byzantine churches and bibles.
LordBest.

corvus · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:54:36 am »

I can not agree with you LordBest!
Russian earlier iconography was indeed quite "Byzantine" and mainly because IT WAS Byzantine one (all artists were imported from Greek world!) and not Russian. But even before the fall of Constantinople, when Russia (and Moscow especially) felt that it is their duty to become "second Constantinople and third Rome" the art made quite radical transformation what become known as RUSSIAN iconography.
When Kiev as centre of Old-Russia weakened and lost is leading position (mid 14 cent.) and later power went to Moscow ( end of 15 cent.) nothing was looking like old good days!
It all started with Rubljov 1370-14230 (as pupil of Theophanes of Greek by the way) and ended in 18 century with Peeter the Great. After that we have a new stage in iconography until early 20 cent.

Simon · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:01:15 am »

V, I tried looking it up but I got only perfume for sale and articles that reffer to it but no clear definition. What is the theroy of "Byzance apres Byzance "?

Simon

LordBest · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:21:42 am »

Not all of its Byzantine, but some of the stuff ive seen in the local Russian import shop, atleast the Christ portraits, are straight out of Byzantine churches. Most of the smalle saintly ones arent particularly Byzantine.

LordBest.

corvus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:43:36 am »

most of those small Christ portraits I'm afraid are copies from copies from copies from earlier icons and those are Greek

You need bit expertise to make difference what is original idea or accomplishment and what is just routine copy from an earlier masterpiece...
Russian 15 cent -18 cent. iconography is not Byzantine any more, you might find brief similarity but it is totally from different world.
But like Vercingetorix mentioned you can find direct links from Balkan countries and as example take some 16 cent. icon from Bulgaria than take Russian 16 cent. one and compare them with 13 cent. Byzantine icon - than you see what I mean. In 15 century Russia was so much influenced with Italy and renaissance (Aristotle Fioravanti and Cathedral of Uspenski in Kreml for exmpl.) that you must be blind to not recognize it immediately; while Balkan ... you might know the story with Ottomans and Co. = equal stagnation

vercingetorix · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:48:12 am »

I perfectly agree with you Corvus-the russians had a different evolution and were subject to other influence as well, while the Balkanic region held the byzantine tradition to keep their identity during the ottoman conquest/domination.

LordBest · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:48:23 am »

Well, i have no expertise, i just like hanging round the Russian import shop in the hope someone will give me a samovar to go away.

LordBest.

vercingetorix · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:50:39 am »

Simon, Byzance apres Byzance is exactly the theory that byzantine influence and tradition didn't die along with the empires-it survived in the Balkanic countries politicaly (court ceremony, offikia etc) and in culture as well.

corvus · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:14:52 am »

just to illustrate my long and boring text take a look from following:

Byzantine 13 century icon, very common subject, idea which was copied before 13 cent and later until our days

corvus · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:16:34 am »

Bulgarian 14 century icon

corvus · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:21:01 am »

and 17 century Bulgarian icon - same composition, and clear note to Byzantine influence is ... red shoes - clear royal mark even couple of cent. after fall of Constantinople...

vercingetorix · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:25:24 am »

Romanian Icon.

corvus · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:28:26 am »

and finally collage of 4 paintings:
first is Vladimir(city)-Mother 12 cent.
second to left is Elijas Ascent to Heaven 16 cent Northen-Russia
third to left is Holy trinity with scene from Genesis 1670 Csars workshop Moscow
last below is 17 century one - same composition as we can see previously but so fresh!!!

vercingetorix · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:32:19 am »

Note the striking resemblance between the byzantine, romanian and vladimir icons.

Simon · « **Reply #21 on:** January 16, 2004, 06:51:55 pm »

Does anyone else have any other versions of the coin or of the same time period they can share. I am curios to see more. If so post the pic.

corvus · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2004, 03:44:05 am »

Hi Simon!

Be my guest, and here is:
Ivan Sisman III (1356-1393?)
Silver 1/2 grosh
Ov: Virgin standing, holding infant Christ
Rv: Ivan Sisman standing.
Imitation of contemporary Byzantine silver (in same time one Bulgarian groshi was imitation of AR grosso from Venice). Toned, attractive aMS.12 mm

corvus · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2004, 03:48:51 am »

and here we are with next almost same period (I have posted same coin earlier here somewhere):
THE EMPIRE OF TREBIZOND
ALEXIUS III A.D.1349-1390
AR Asper VF
Attribution: Sear Byz 2628; unpublished in Retowski
Date: 1349-1390 AD
Obverse: O EVG-NIO (M); St. Eugenius riding right on horseback, holding long cross
Reverse: AE – M; Emperor riding right on horseback, holding sceptre
Size: 22 mm Weight: 2.38 grams
Description: Crude VF, double-struck. A variety apparently unpublished in Retowski

corvus · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2004, 03:51:54 am »

and finally same coin like yours only HALF stravata:
Silver half stravata (quarter-hyperpyron), S 2565, DO variety 4a, aEF, crudely engraved and struck as typical for this type, 3.37g, 19.8mm, 0º, Mint: Constantinople
Av: bust of Christ facing, with cross nimbus, wearing tunic and himation, right hand raised in benediction, holding the book of Gospels in left hand, incomplete IC - XC (Jesus Christ) across fields, double border of with eight pellets between
Rv: IWANHC BACILEVC (or DECPOTIC) O PALEOLOGOC or similar (illegible), bust of John VIII facing, bearded, nimbate, wearing crown with pendilia and scalloped tippet, one pellet in both left and right fields; ex Harlan Berk, ex Woolslayer collection, scarce

Simon · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2004, 07:09:56 am »

corvus · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2004, 11:15:46 am »

Simon · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2004, 07:37:01 am »

corvus · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2004, 09:02:08 am »

i-xan · « **Reply #29 on:** December 22, 2005, 03:20:18 pm »

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Author Topic: Abstract (Read 5070 times)

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