Whats the chances of it?

[AlexB]

Hi

I bought a Patraos tet from CNG recently and note that they have another in new Triton sale. See attached.

Does anyone else notice that they are almost identical!! They are listed as different hoard no's (Paeonian hoard 380 and 484 I think) though same SNG1040 reference. Also they both have same marks on neck (rusty die?)

BUT, more curiously, both have identical 'cuts' behind apollo's head/neck. These are quite deep/jagged - Is this unusual? What sort of die error is this? Or a test-cut?

Thanks

AlexB

[Jerome Holderman]

The same Mark coming from the horse riders elbow also.

Pretty Scary!

[Robert_Brenchley]

Scary indeed. Could be a reverse and obverse die match from damaged dies?

[ember]

Hi,

The matching die damage could easily be explained by these being coins from the same hoard.  Both of these coins are in EF condition wear-wise, which means they went to ground almost instantly from the mint.  This is akin to getting paper money with consecutive serial numbers from the bank.  What worries Alex is the marks behind the head on the obverse.  These are cuts into the flan on his coin, and apprear to be the same on the other coin.  Does anyone know how this might happen?

Darcy

[Jerome Holderman]

Am I mis-understanding Alex's Comments? He says they are from different hoards right?

[ember]

Hi,

The coins are corresponding to different reference coins(numbers) in the same hoard, I think.  

Darcy

[curtislclay]

The marks at 9-10 o'cl. on obv. edge, since visible, though less strongly, on the second coin as well as the first, must be die damage, imparted to both coins at the time of strike.
I can't find our copy of the Sotheby catalogue to check the Paeonian Hoard references.

[AlexB]

Thanks all.

Firstly, to explain, my understanding of Paeonian Hoard no's may be shakey - if 'Paeonian Hoard 380 and 484' are diff numbered coins from same hoard, that makes sense. If diff. hoards, then well it doesnt so much as regards the similarities here.

My main (only) point is the cuts as Ember points out - whereas I can understand die rust indenting a coin surely this would be as per the nature of rust as I have observed it - roughness and uneven shapes. The neck marks are consistent with corrosion in mho.

As per elbow, think thats the back of the lance?

However, what about the deeper 'cuts' behind Apollo's neck?

My question is simply 'How'd that happen?'

Rgds

AlexB

[rick fox]

 The obverse appears to be identicle.  The reverse is a slightly different story.

Several differences can be seen.

At 12:00 on the coin on the top has something that looks like a backwards P.  The second coin has a completely different character. (Almost looks like a right side P on its side)

The solder on the right has something ( a horse tail?) or scratch around his butt.  Their is a similar item on the second coin, but the angle is slightly different.

THe solder's shield are slightly different as well.

It is uncanny however that the obv is identical almost.

I think it has been said here before, but, Wierd!

[Steve Minnoch]

The obverse appears to be identicle.  The reverse is a slightly different story.

I think the differences you have pointed out are attributable to differences in the damage/wear/repair of the die/coin, weakness in the strike, or illusions of the photogtraphy.  There are so many tiny details in common that the die is surely the same.

Steve

[AlexB]

Hi

I think its the same - the mark behind the soldier is actually a foot from his bent right leg (sort of running pose). The different 'T' I think is repair or damage either to die or prehaps top coin? The 'P' is a bit harder to work out...

Maybe the engraver had two goin at the same time and copied them identically except for a few differences on writing?

Anyway, what about the cuts behind neck!!

AlexB

[Ibex-coins]

To add to Steve's point, sometimes a die would be reworked a little bit to lengthen its lifespan, this could account for the subtle differences as well as die wear.

[curtislclay]

   The two Paeonian Hoard references are to the same Sotheby auction catalogue and the same hoard.
    I suppose, but cannot confirm, that the first number was sold as a single coin, while the second number was a lot of several coins, explaining the appearance of two die-identical specimens in lots with widely different numbers.
    Alex, is it the marks at 9-10 o'cl. on obv. edge that bother you, or some others?  I'm not sure what you mean by "behind Apollo's neck".
    As Steve M. says, the rev. dies too are clearly the same, and the differences Silver Collector points out are due to die wear/repair or photographic illusion.

[AlexB]

Hi Curtis

Is the crescent 'cut' marks behind apollos neck which look like two parallel (but bent) lines on both coins. These in reality are 'trenches' for want of a better word.

Seems odd to me that they would be on both coins, though they could be 'cracks' from stretching during strike I suppose...however same on both?!

I am guessing test marks.

AlexB

[curtislclay]

Alex,
    I'm still not sure what marks you mean.
    Please specify by hours of the clock and nearness to edge!
Regards,
Curtis Clay

[AlexB]

Here:

[Jerome Holderman]

Running from the bottom of the hair line to the back of the neck. My monitor is very bright and they are not real clear but I can see them.

[AlexB]

Here: sorry having real problems when Joe writes something - whole thing slows right down....

[curtislclay]

        Thanks, at last I get it!
        However, I see no reason not to interpret those faults as die breaks!

[AlexB]

Surely a die-break would mean protrusions from the coin? ie. hole/crack in die, silver fills hole, lump on coin?

When does a die break leave a ridge into the coin? Hence my original question!!

Are you saying the die could have encrustations (sharp like that) on it? Please describe.

Thanks

 

[curtislclay]

I don't see any depressions in the surface, just shadows thrown by the die breaks that are apparently in quite high relief.

[AlexB]

Thanks.

I can't get to grips with die breaks being high-relief. Don't doubt it but don't understand it.

A die must be a hard object to create its image. When it breaks due to fatigue or poor material I would have thought it splits or bits chip-off? In these cases, if used, I can't stop thinking that the silver struck would feed up into the splits or into the cracks to leave a protrusion on the coin.

Can anyone tell (explain) to me how it would result in a fissure into the silver?

Not being awkward - simply don't understand!!

 

[curtislclay]

I was forgetting you have one of the coins actually in hand, so can say whether or not there is an undeniable fissure into the coin's surface.
If that is the case, I cannot explain it, but think it has to be due to a fault on the die, since it's out of the question that two diffierent specimens happened to be test cut in exactly the same place!

[Numerianus]

Could you accept the idea that these are two photos
of the same coin? All differences may be due to a small variation in the light...

[AlexB]

No definately different coins - flan has a lip on no. 1

Mine has no lip...  

AlexB

[bpmurphy]

[bpmurphy]

[AlexB]

[Jerome Holderman]

[AlexB]