Mystery Domitian denarius

[Jay GT4]

Thanks guys. 

I heard back from Professor Carradice today.  It is his opinion that the coin is a barbarous imitation.  His reasoning was the blundered legend, the lettering and the style, especially the reverse, which is not in keeping with the official issue. 

I highly respect his opinion.  For now it will go down as a barbarous imitation with an    with the hope that more of these coins come to light. 

[FlaviusDomitianus]

So be it.

I'll be on the lookout

Alberto

[David Atherton]

Thanks guys. 

I heard back from Professor Carradice today.  It is his opinion that the coin is a barbarous imitation.  His reasoning was the blundered legend, the lettering and the style, especially the reverse, which is not in keeping with the official issue. 

Hmmm ... great minds think alike! 

[Jay GT4]

Thanks guys.  He also thought the rim might show signs of plating, but I assured him it was a trick of the light, we'll see if that changes his opinion! 

I do have some more questions now which can probably never be answered.  If it is an ancient forgery:

Why use a silver flan and not a copper core?

Could it be overstuck on another eastern denarius?

Why put so much effort into making dies and striking it instead of just casting from an authentic coin?

I have another "unofficial" coin of Vespasian struck in silver with a blundered legend.  Interestingly it also has this type of tapered flan.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-90841

[okidoki]

Thanks guys.  He also thought the rim might show signs of plating, but I assured him it was a trick of the light, we'll see if that changes his opinion! 

I do have some more questions now which can probably never be answered.  If it is an ancient forgery:

Why use a silver flan and not a copper core?

Could it be overstuck on another eastern denarius?

Why put so much effort into making dies and striking it instead of just casting from an authentic coin?

I have another "unofficial" coin of Vespasian struck in silver with a blundered legend.  Interestingly it also has this type of tapered flan.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-90841

Dear Jay,

an imitation does not mean a forgery, just not official
it can be even heavier than an official minted

if plated or much lighter it would be a forgery of some sort IMHO

[Jay GT4]

Hi Eric,  an imitation would not be official and so by definition...a forgery 

[okidoki]

Hi Eric,  an imitation would not be official and so by definition...a forgery 

Sorry my friend but i do not agree.
here is why, it's the weight that counts and not how it looks, so if the weight is the same you get no less than with a normal silver coin

[David Atherton]

Hi Eric,  an imitation would not be official and so by definition...a forgery 

Sorry my friend but i do not agree.
here is why, it's the weight that counts and not how it looks, so if the weight is the same you get no less than with a normal silver coin

I have to agree with Jay. During the Flavian era if a coin was not produced in an official mint by the authorities it is a forgery, regardless of whether it imitates a known type or not, is the correct weight, or is struck in the correct metal. A forgery doesn't have to be plated.

[Jay GT4]

Yes, if someone made a Euro coin, out of the exact same metal, and same design and weight, it's still a forgery.

[FlaviusDomitianus]

Yes, if someone made a Euro coin, out of the exact same metal, and same design and weight, it's still a forgery.

Only the purpose, I think, was different: a coin made of the same metal and weighing the same, if not more, than the official one, was not intended to defraud someone, as was the case with the plated ones.

Alberto

[okidoki]

Yes, if someone made a Euro coin, out of the exact same metal, and same design and weight, it's still a forgery.

Only the purpose, I think, was different: a coin made of the same metal and weighing the same, if not more, than the official one, was not intended to defraud someone, as was the case with the plated ones.

Alberto

Yes that is my point

[okidoki]

Yes, if someone made a Euro coin, out of the exact same metal, and same design and weight, it's still a forgery.

in those day's the value was the weight, a lump of gold/silver say 3.5  grams was the same value as a 3.5 gram coin,

The intrinsic value of money refers to the actual value of money which is based on an underlying perception of its true value . It can be in terms of tangible and intangible . The value of money may not neccesarily be the same as the value of the current market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics)

[Jay GT4]

We are off on a tangent here, but if that is the case, why bother putting anything on the coin at all?  Why not just hand a hunk of silver to someone?  Someone is being defrauded...the issuing authority.   If it is unofficial it must by definition be a forgery.  It is not issued by the legitimate authorities.

If someone makes a perfect US $100 bill with the same paper, same ink, same design and then buys something with it, and then in turn that person buys something and on and on it goes, by your reasoning that is not a forgery because nobody was defrauded.  In fact someone was defrauded, the government.

Maybe this should be spit off into a new topic.

[stevex6]

I don't get it?

 

[PeterD]

Yes, this subject has been discussed before.

in those day's the value was the weight, a lump of gold/silver say 3.5  grams was the same value as a 3.5 gram coin

I don't think so. With a coin you can go off and buy a pot of garum or something else. What can you do with a 3.5 gram lump of silver? Of course when the coinage was first established it was based on the perceived value of the metal, but then someone invented debasement.

As we all know, the amount of silver in the denarius decreased over time, although the overall weight remained roughly the same. However, the value of the denarius also stayed the same. If it could buy two loaves of bread before debasement, it could buy two loaves after. There was no point in debasement if this was not so.

Debasing the silver coinage effectively increased the price of bullion silver (in terms of denarii) since if you took a lump of silver bullion to the mint (assuming you could) you would receive more denarii than you would have done before a debasement.

The point about coins is that you didn't have to know exactly how much they weighed or what their metal content was. Indeed there was no way of measuring this in every day transactions. You just had to 'believe'. So the weight or composition of a 'forgery' was not easily known. The design on the faces of them might more easily be seen but mixed up in loose change, who knows?

[Robert_Brenchley]

A few years ago we had a situation where a large proportion of the pound coins in circulation were forgeries, and nobody cared. They were used quite indiscriminately. The shops weren't concerned so the banks have to have been accepting them. I suspect it was the same with these.