Author Topic: Cuneiform? (Read 6141 times)

Molinari · « **on:** February 29, 2012, 07:19:00 pm »

Not sure if I should post this here because it is not a coin.

I bought this piece several years ago from a reputable dealer. I've tried to translate it but I've can't make anything out and I'm starting to think the writing is all wrong for any period. It is supposedly from the period of Ur III. Would anyone here know enough to tell me if it is authentic?

Nick

Hydatius · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2012, 02:38:56 pm »

I've never seen anything like this with pictures (and they look completely wrong as well). Cuneiform is incised; it can't stick out. This looks like an impression of an original. And that doesn't look like any cuneiform I've ever seen. Google 'cuneiform' and click 'images' so see what this should look like.

Richard

Howard Cole · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2012, 02:53:13 pm »

I was wondering if it was some kind of seal impression?

Molinari · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:55:51 am »

Perhaps the picture is playing tricks. The cuneiform is incised. There is a seal impression that runs across all surfaces so I believe that is the part you are seeing as raised.

The seal, to me, looks ok. It is the cuneiform itself, which I believe might be nonsense because I can't match it to any scripts. Although, it could be a "practice/student" piece which I have heard about before.

Thanks for the responses,

Nick

Skyler · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2012, 09:44:49 pm »

taste it, does it taste salty? does it smell and taste like clay or does it have a more mellow , milky aroma

Molinari · « **Reply #5 on:** March 12, 2012, 09:49:16 am »

Well, it could be a fake made from clay as it appears to be clay. But I'll give it a try.

Thanks,

Nick

Skyler · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2012, 02:52:43 pm »

cicerokid · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:13:22 pm »

The cuneiform tablet, if real, might be in language other than Sumerian or in a dialect.

If I owned it I would ask the University of Birmingham ( England), to have a look ( I attended for a short while the AC course).

I guess there are Universities in th US that do Ancient Civilisations or Museums!

The problem is quality of photographs.

My GUESS is because of the stamps and the general look of the script that it is not real.

hannibal2 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:16:42 pm »

You got me intrigued.

A couple of the small letters are identifiable cuneiform, --babylonian--. See pic attached.

Please enlarge to see the conn lines.

Some more views of the larger indentations may be helpful to identify the letters on the edge.

cr

ps know anything regarding provenance?

Molinari · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:21:46 pm »

Thanks for the info. I thought the seal looked correct, at least the cuneiform on it, and your picture confirms there are some matches.

I've posted to a Yahoo group as well so if I find out any info from them I'll let you all know.

Nick

PS: I notice a possible match highlighted below.

Molinari · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2012, 01:18:06 pm »

Here is the response I got from an expert:

I've looked at your piece that you posted on the list.

This certainly is fine, and to the Neo-Sumerian period, per the dealer's suggestion... You have here not only a good bit of text, but also the sealings from the scribe here that should be translated and identified. What I'm not able to see here is if the piece is actually a portion of an envelope, or if there is text surrounding the tablet, (which would indicate it's a full tablet) based on your single shot here. If text surrounds the piece, then you have something that's a really strong example of this type of document - the sealings here are quite well preserved.

In any case, your tablet would date to 2200-2100 BC and without a doubt is from Ur.

Pretty cool, huh? Now time to translate!

Nick

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2012, 01:49:17 pm »

Very cool. I have never seen such nice sealings on a tablet. Glad to hear it is authentic.

Molinari · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:03:18 pm »

He recommended I get it professionally translated by a very generous professor (he said the professor would be interested in such a clear seal impression), so when I do, I'll post the translation here for all to enjoy.

Nick

Molinari · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2012, 07:54:19 am »

A compilation of photos showing the tablet in its entirety. Dr. [Name removed] has very generously offered to provide a translation of the seal when time permits.

Perhaps an administrator could move this thread to the antiquities section?

Nick

cicerokid · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2012, 12:08:00 pm »

Glad to hear it is authentic too.

When it gets translated and interpreted please pass on I am intrigued.
( hope it's something exciting like how many sheep are sick........

)

Cic

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2012, 04:40:10 pm »

Based on the photos I suspect it might be an envelope (with a tablet inside)?

Molinari · « **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2012, 07:42:09 pm »

Quote from: Joe Sermarini on March 19, 2012, 04:40:10 pm

Based on the photos I suspect it might be an envelope (with a tablet inside)?

I think that might be the case, and Phil suspected that too. I'm hoping the professor will include that info with the translation.

I'm wondering, if it is an envelope, is there any way (X-Ray) to see inside? That would be awesome.

Nick

Molinari · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2013, 10:16:44 am »

I heard back from the professor today, who provided what he could for a translation:

Here is the seal inscription. It is in two columns:

Shu-Sin, mighty king, king of Ur, king of the four quarters;

Simat-Ishtaran, (is) his beloved sister, (and) Adad-tillati, son of Abia, is her servant

Unfortunately it is difficult to read much of the tablet without holding the original.

He's going to try and translate more if I can take better photos!

Molinari · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2013, 10:52:00 am »

Perhaps a moderator could move this out of authentication and into the appropriate antiquities section?

cicerokid · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2013, 02:47:21 pm »

This is really great. A tablet & envelope and someone to translate.

Keep up the good work and keep posting

Cic

Molinari · « **Reply #20 on:** April 26, 2013, 10:47:10 am »

Thanks, cicerokid.

More info that I've added to the gallery description:

Shu-sin (Šu-Suen) reigned over the Third Dynasty of Ur from 2037-2029 BC. During his reign, he constructed a fortified wall between the Euphrates and Tigris to hold off an Amorite attack.

Also, a great resource for anyone interested in cuneiform tablets:

Cuneiform Digital Library Initiative: http://cdli.ucla.edu/

Russ · « **Reply #21 on:** April 27, 2013, 09:01:49 am »

Just a note ...

The Electronic Texts and Near Eastern Archives (ETANA and/or ETANA/ABZU) maintains a huge collection of online publications pertaining to cuneiform inscriptions at:http://www.etana.org/coretexts

Russ

Molinari · « **Reply #22 on:** April 27, 2013, 09:21:14 pm »

Quote from: Russ on April 27, 2013, 09:01:49 am

Just a note ...

The Electronic Texts and Near Eastern Archives (ETANA and/or ETANA/ABZU) maintains a huge collection of online publications pertaining to cuneiform inscriptions at:http://www.etana.org/coretexts

Russ

Thanks, Russ. I just got some more info from the expert today:

The tablet is from a site that I published a few years ago (Garshana). I know the seal and the person on the tablet, Anah-ili, who deals in leather goods. The seal owner, Adad-tillati, is the supervisor of the Garshana estate.

Full translation forthcoming!

Nick

Molinari · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2013, 11:11:51 am »

I just updated my gallery to include all the information (reproduced below) about this piece that I could gather.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-78551

Nick

Administrative Tablet from Garšana, Third Dynasty of Ur, 2037-2029 BC

Translation of the seal, in two columns:
Shu-Sin, mighty king, king of Ur, king of the four quarters;
Simat-Ishtaran, (is) his beloved sister, (and) Adad-tillati, son of Abia, is her servant

Translated by Prof. David I. Owen, the Bernard and Jane Schapiro Professor of Ancient Near Eastern and Judaic Studies at Cornell University, and Curator of the Cornell Cuneiform Tablet Collection

Shu-Sin: Shu-Sin (Šu-Suen ), c. 2037-2029 BC, reigned over the Third Dynasty of Ur from 2037-2029 BC. During his reign, he constructed a fortified wall between the Euphrates and Tigris to hold off an Amorite attack. Garšana was a household under the Third Dynasty of Ur, but a “household” back then was more like a very large plantation.

The Seal: The seal on this tablet was owned by Adad-tillati, the major-domo (bureaucratic administrator) of Garšana. He was responsible for overseeing all the workshops at Garšana. His seals are used in receiving raw materials, sending raw materials to craftsmen, receiving finished products from craftsmen, and distributing finished products outside of the workshop.

The Writing: The writing itself, according to Prof. Owen, documents the delivery of an animal skin for the king by Anah-ili, an official in charge of the leather workshop on the estate at Garšana. Anah-ili reported directly to Adad-tillati, the major-domo. Since the inscription mentions the skin was for the King (and so a finished product), we can conclude that this tablet represents an example of Step 3 in the craft production scheme at Garšana, in which we see a delivery of finished products to the central administration. (See Kleinerman, A. "Craft Production at Garšana: The Leather and Textile Workshops" in CUSAS 6, David I. Owen, ed., CDL Press 2011)

Taras · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2013, 01:07:54 pm »

Nick, that is really amazing, congratulations.
I think that holding in hands an object so full of historical meaning can really make your head spin.
Wonderful!

News:

Author Topic: Cuneiform? (Read 6141 times)

Taras