Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis  (Read 4169 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« on: April 04, 2009, 08:40:20 pm »
Hi!

Today I catched a small Severus coin from Nikopolis with a mirrored rev. legend.

Moesia inferior, Nikopolis ad Istrum, Septimius Severus, AD 193-211
AE 18
obv. [AV K]L C - CEVHROC
        Head, laureate, r.
rev. NIKOPO - LIT PROC (mirrored, from lower right counterclockwise)
       Hermes, nude, chlamys over l. arm, stg. l., holding keryxkeion in l. arm and purse in r. hand
ref. a) not in AMNG:
           obv. AMNG I/1, 1377
           rev. AMNG I/1, [1381] var. (only legend, has PROC IC. But Pick seems to have this coin not in hand, so the legend may
                  be not sure)
                  AMNG I/1, 1373 (depiction)
      b) Varbanov (engl.) 2344 var. (has AV C -  CEVHROC, but pic very odd), rev. same die

This is the first coin of Nikopolis in my collection with this strange rev. legend. The only type in AMNG I have found is #[1381] (in square brackets, meaning that Pick has not seen this specimen). The legend is not only retrograde, but mirrored too. Therefore I think the die cutter has forgotten  to cut the die legend mirrored as he must do correctly. Then it would be only a legend error. AMNG I/1, 1389 has the same rev. legend anterograde. But why then Pick has given his specimen an own catalog number?

And has anyone another ex. with a retrograde and mirrored legend from Nikopolis?

Best regards
                 

Offline archivum

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2920
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 02:22:04 am »
You have probably seen the 1381 specimens in coinarchives.com:

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/results.php?search=1381+and+nikop&s=1&save=1&results=100 *

It is interesting to see this Priapus reverse -- just one die? -- in conjunction with more than one portrait- and beard-type, as if this misengraved reverse die lasted longer than one or both obverses.

   * Here's the possibly still rarer version with the legend the right way around:

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=33731&AucID=37&Lot=522
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 06:43:24 am »
Thanks archivum for the comparision of the same type with retrograde and anterograde legend. That's just attractive. I will take it as cutting error.

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 06:49:48 pm »
On Jochen's coin, only the legend is backwards, while Hermes is correctly shown standing left, just as on the coins where the legend is correct.

On the Priapos coins, the engraver erroneously reversed the whole type: on AMNG 1380 with normal legend Priapos stands l., but on [1381] with backwards legend he stands right, as the CoinArchives images show.  Pick at 1381 says "the same type", but this must he an error on his part or by Mionnet or Dumersan whom he quotes: certainly Dumersan's coin with retrograde rev. legend must have been from the same rev. die as the specimens now shown on CoinArchives.

Jochen, I don't understand your question: are you objecting to Pick's making 1381 a separate entry, rather than just a "Variant, engraver's error" of 1380?

I have never heard "anterograde" and had to look up "antero" in the dictionary to figure out what you meant!  The normal term is "right way round" or "correctly engraved."
Curtis Clay

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 05:02:31 am »
Thanks Curtis for your information. I just wonder that Pick has given this engraver's error a separate number.

To the term 'anterograde': In medical science it is used as reverse of 'retrograde', f.e.  anterograde amnesia in contrast to retrograde amnesia. But I think the better term is 'orthograde'.

Best regards

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 12:17:13 pm »
I may have a coin for comparison, Jochen.  I'll post a pic this evening.

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2009, 07:57:26 am »
Here it is, a beater from uncleaneds (obviously).  The only reason I kept it around is because its the only coin I've got showing someone with a purse.   17mm and not sure that its even Sept Sev...


Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 10:27:20 am »
Oh, here Hermes wears the petasos, and winged boots too I think.

Best regards

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 02:56:37 pm »
My Priapus is as ugly as they come but still retro:


My lion is boustrophedon (only one I've seen):

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 04:02:00 pm »
Yes, that's a nice type with the retrograde text only in the ex.

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2009, 04:22:04 pm »
I would say that the TP in exergue are upside down, not retrograde.

Flip those two letters around bottom to top, and the legend will read correctly, with CICTPO upside down in the exergue.

Doug, what do you mean by calling this reverse "boustrophedon"?

Curtis Clay

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2009, 04:28:12 pm »
Hi Curtis!

I have held the pic of the last coin in front of a mirror and then I could read it correctly CICTRO. Therefore I would call the legend in the ex. mirrored too.

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2009, 05:18:11 pm »
Jochen,

Since the engraver cut the whole circular legend correctily, reversing it on the die so it would read correctly on the coin, I consider it more likely that he continued writing the legend correctly in the exergue too, CIC upside down, but then lost his orientation and erroneously rendered the TP not retrograde, but upside down!

As to "boustrophedon", I found the definition in Melville Jones' Dictionary of Greek Coins, p. 42:

" 'Ox-turning', a term used by epigraphists to describe writing which goes from left to right and from right to left in alternate lines, in the manner of an ox when ploughing a field."

I don't think the legend on Doug's lion coin is boustrophedon, but I suppose this arrangement must occur on some Greek coins, to justify Melville Jones' inclusion of the word in his Dictionary!
Curtis Clay

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2009, 05:32:42 pm »
'...but then lost his orientation' is a convincing suggestion.

Best regards

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 11:38:34 am »
[DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
Akragas comes to mind.  

Offline archivum

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2920
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 12:13:50 am »
I have been away but will weigh in once more with regard to reply #3 and Pick's error in stating that 1381 is "the same type" as 1380 but with legend reversed.  As I mentioned in reply #1, there is a still rarer variant * of 1381 facing right (as that does) but with legend the right way around; based on Curtis' remarks I guess we should see this new unlisted version as a possibly still rarer upgraded variant of 1381 which corrects the reversed Greek but doesn't restore the original left-orientation of Pick's 1380.   Of four possible configurations we actually have three, 1380 [= Varbanov (E) 227-28], the version that CA tags as 1381 [= Varbanov (E) 2283], and the version depicted below [= Varbanov (E) 2326]; what we don't seem to have is just Pick's phantom-variant as 1381, with both retrograde legend and P. facing left.

   * Varbarbov (E) 2326 (pictured in V.); also [DEAD LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (image below).
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline archivum

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2920
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 02:02:15 pm »
From the same dies, it seems, my own specimen of the unlisted non-retrograde right-facing version and two similar specimens from Wildwinds (http://wildwinds.com/coins/ric/septimius_severus/_nikopolis_AE13_AMNG_1380v.txt / .jpg and http://wildwinds.com/coins/ric/septimius_severus/_nikopolis_AE17_AMNG_1380.txt / -o.jpg and -r.jpg):
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline arizonarobin

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 653
  • Ms. arizonarobin :)
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2009, 07:03:53 pm »
does my little JD fit in here?

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12323
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2009, 07:12:11 pm »
A nice little coin! It is the counterpart to the coin of Severus some posts above.

Best regards

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2009, 07:49:45 pm »
A nice little coin! It is the counterpart to the coin of Severus some posts above.

Best regards

Adding the P to the exergue adds weight to the suggestion that this section is retrograde rather than inverted with upside down letters but adds a new question as to why this happens on more than one Lion die.  Accidents might be expected to be more random???  It appears that the cutter allowed the language to be written in either direction as was fashionable 800 years earlier in Greek.  What language near this region retained two directional writing later?  We'll never know the nationality of the any foreigners who cut the dies and what prejudices they brought with them from their native language. 

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2009, 01:02:01 am »
Boustrophedon: one of my favorite Greek words.  I'd be surprised to see it on a coin, though at first I thought that I might have it on the one attached (no, see Pick, as usual), or, for that matter, on a Severan stone inscription, unless perhaps in some hinterland, because it is characteristic of early epigraphy when, the reasonable theory goes, many had the same problem as many six-year-old children whose brains and eye muscles still are immature: difficulty in going back to the beginning of the next line, owing to the break in direct continuity.
But, such as it is (and I didn't buy it for beauty), here is my Elagabalus with governor Seleucus's whole name written out.
• 12 02 03 AE 27 (irreg.)  Marcianopolis.  Issued by Seleukos.  Confronted draped busts of Elagabalus, laureate, and Julia Maesa .  AV[T K M AVR] ANTONEINOS AVG IOVLIA MAISA AVGRev., .PV. / IOVL,AN / T[Omega]NIOV.SEL / [OVKO]V.MARK / IANOPOLIT / Omega    N  with very large subscript E (for pente) between omega and nu and framed by ribbon ends of the laurel wreath; at top between the ends of the laurel, •.  As Pick notes, the engraver wrote pi upsilon for upsilon pi at the top.  Exactly the die pair of the Berlin example that Pick describes (Cat. 65, 46), which,  he says, is the only coin on which the second name of Seleukos is written out.
Pat L.

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Mirrored legend from Nikopolis
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2009, 01:24:25 am »
Boustrophedon: one of my favorite Greek words.  I'd be surprised to see it on a coin,
Pat L.

Now that it is closed, I hope Joe will forgive mention of a competing auction lot which is one of the nicest examples of Boustrophedon on a coin that I can recall.  It was in the ACCG benefit auction and I hope one of you bought it.  The city name begins normally and switches to retrograde under the bird.  Unfortunately the gamma missed hitting the flan but the nu and sigma are clearly reversed as is appropriate for the direction of reading.  In addition to moving between left to right and right to left, Boustrophedon switches to mirror letter forms when going right to left.  

http://www.vauctions.com/auctions/APViewArchiveItem.asp?ID=3525

I suppose the signed die in the one below accounts for the value difference but the ACCG coin was more clear due to better surfaces.   If you search the other listings on the acsearch link you'll find both other Boustrophedon coins and some where the legend was turned over to read normally.  Don't forget to look at the gold coins with Boustrophedon Silanos on the reverse.  

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?search=akragas+crab&view_mode=1&page=1#0

Yes, Pat, it was one of my favorite words when I took Greek One way back when.  


 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity