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Author Topic: Selinos early types  (Read 2047 times)

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Offline glebe

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Selinos early types
« on: October 21, 2014, 12:07:59 am »
Can someone give me the correct Calciati (CNS) references for the types below?
They are not shown in Hoover's new book on Sicily, and seem to be tetronkia rather than trionkia. Are they simply a variety of the tetronkia CNS 3 [not CNS 4 as I first said], which is shown in Hoover as coin 1232?

Incidentally, Hoover's coin 1233 seems to be just another (unclear) example of 1232 - i.e, it's not the trionkia CNS 4.

Ross G.

Offline gordian_guy

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 11:03:26 pm »


Your examples seem to match CNS type 4.

c.rhodes

Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 04:22:47 am »
The trouble is CNS 4 is supposed to be a trionkia.
The coins below seem to be better candidates for CNS 4, with (apparently) only 3 pellets.
But perhaps it's just a matter of style. Maybe.

Ross G.

Offline gordian_guy

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 08:31:19 pm »


CNS calls type 4 Tetras.

c.rhodes

Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 02:00:45 am »

CNS calls type 4 Tetras.

c.rhodes

I.e, tetrantes or trionkia, as Hoover calls them, with three pellets.
The trouble is people confuse tetras (3 pellets) with tetrunx/tetronkia (4 pellets), as Head did in BMC Sicily (p. liv), so the tendency now is to use tetronkia/trionkia/dionkia etc, which makes things clear.
Actually, wouldn't trionkion (triple-ounce) be better for the name of the coin? - trionkia (three ounces) is its value.

Ross G.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014, 08:13:38 am »
Calciati published some specimens with three or four pellets listed as Trias (Calciati I.234.3), and some with three pellets listed as Tetras (Calciati I.235.4). It is still an uncertain matter, because weights do not help much, as probably we are looking to older and later specimens, based on two different standards for the Litra, the older heavier.

I would list all the coin posted above as Calciati 3-4. I would not give any certain and definitive classification, if I'd give an opinion according to the current state of studies.


CNS calls type 4 Tetras.

c.rhodes

I.e, tetrantes or trionkia, as Hoover calls them, with three pellets.
The trouble is people confuse tetras (3 pellets) with tetrunx/tetronkia (4 pellets), as Head did in BMC Sicily (p. liv), so the tendency now is to use tetronkia/trionkia/dionkia etc, which makes things clear.
Actually, wouldn't trionkion (triple-ounce) be better for the name of the coin? - trionkia (three ounces) is its value.

Ross G.

This is a very complex and confusing matter, in particular because the weight metrology of the cast coinage of Selinous has not yet been established with certainty (the last who tried to make things clearer is Lorenzo Lazzarini, "Note sull'aes grave di Selinunte" 2009, but his work has not completely cleared the field from uncertainties, I post scans of his work as attachments for those interested).

Some thoughts about your words Ross... Today people is confused because between the seventies and eighties there was a real reversal of terminology about the weight system based on litra.
Indeed, we must point out that Head was right, he did not confused anything, in fact in the years he wrote his work, the denomination Trias was mainly used to define a coin with three pellets, so a trias = 3 onkiai (We know of scholars that used this classification still in 1977, for an authoritative example see Enzo Cammarata's relation at congress "Le origini della monetazione di bronzo in Sicilia ed in Magna Grecia"). In the following years scholars have instead encoded a denomination agreement based on the duodecimal system of litra for which the name expresses the fraction of the litra, not the amount of onkiai...  so now the Trias is no more the minimum fractional multiplied for three (1 onkia X 3). Today the Trias is the maximum denomination divided by three (1/3 Litra = 4 onkiai).
Summarizing:
The trias amounts to a third of litra, a litra is made of 12 onkiai; a third of 12 is equivalent to four onkiai. ie Trias = four pellets.
The Tetras amounts to a quarter of litra, a litra is made of 12 onkiai; a quarter of 12 is equivalent to three onkiai. ie Tetras = three pellets.
Today, since eighties, there is agreement among major scholars to use this system (in fact Calciati was already using the correct system in his work dated 1983)... although some of them are sometimes inattentive and still use the old incorrect naming system, like here: http://www.greekcoinvalues.com/introduction.php

[/quote]
Actually, wouldn't trionkion (triple-ounce) be better for the name of the coin? - trionkia (three ounces) is its value.
[/quote]

Ross this would be not better in my opinion, cause it would be based again on the minimum fractional, and we could not understand the frame weight system.
If you say: "Tetras" I can immediatly understand that you are talking of a coin from a duodecimal weight system based on litra (Tatras = 1/4 of Litra = three onkiai).
If you say "Trionkion" I can only understand that the coin has a value of three onkiai, but I will not grasp anything about the frame weight system. In fact in Greek Italy we know of coinage standards of litra, but based on a decimal system, not duodecimal. For this reason we use the term pentonkion just to name those coins with five pellets based on a decimal system.

Best regards :)
Nico

PS. those matters, among other interesting stuff on the coinage of Selinous, were already discussed on the Italian forum at this link:
http://www.lamoneta.it/topic/128197-emilitra-almeno-credo-in-bronzo-di-selino/?hl=selinus

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 08:15:28 am »
...

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 08:18:30 am »
...

Offline Molinari

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 08:19:07 am »
You might be the smartest (and craziest :) ) guy I know, Nico.  Thanks for the info.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 08:20:33 am »
...

Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2014, 03:19:08 pm »
Thanks for all that Nico. I think it's clear that we don't yet have a full understanding of all of the early Selinos denominations and weight standards.
Reading Hoover again I see that my comment on Trionkion versus Trionkia was misconceived - he is (I think) referring to the type in the plural ("Tetrantes or Trionkia").
Also, my reference to Head p. liv should of course have been to his Historia Numorum not BMC Sicily. For those interested Historia Numorum is available online here:

https://archive.org/details/Head_HN_1911

Ross G.

P.S. Although shouldn't it be "Tetrantes or Trionkiai"? - now I'm really confused.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2014, 04:06:27 pm »
Latin "Tetrantes" is also used for "Tetras" by numismatists.
Vitruvius refers to the term "Tetrantes" to describe the quarter-circles by which are built the scrolls of Ionic capitals.
Tetras = 1/4 of Litra = 3 onkiai

Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2014, 04:42:53 pm »


The trouble is people confuse tetras (3 pellets) with tetrunx/tetronkia (4 pellets), as Head did in BMC Sicily [actually, Historia Numorum] (p. liv), so the tendency now is to use tetronkia/trionkia/dionkia etc, which makes things clear.

Ross G.
[/quote]

Some thoughts about your words Ross... Today people is confused because between the seventies and eighties there was a real reversal of terminology about the weight system based on litra.
Indeed, we must point out that Head was right, he did not confused anything, in fact in the years he wrote his work, the denomination Trias was mainly used to define a coin with three pellets, so a trias = 3 onkiai
Best regards :)
Nico

[/quote]

On reflection, I can't really agree that Head was "right", although he may have been using the standard terminology of his day. What he said in Historia Numorum was:

"The bronze litra, like the Roman libra, was divided into 12 ounces. Thus the Hemilitron has six pellets, the Pentonkion five, the Tetras four, the Trias three, the Hexas two, and the Onkion one."

Clearly here the Hexas means a sixth of a litra, with two pellets, so to be consistent Tetras ought to mean a quarter of a litra, with three pellets (not four, as Head says), and Trias should mean a third of a litra, with four pellets (not three).

So at the very least Head's terminology is internally inconsistent. It's also at variance with Roman terminology, where Triens always meant a third of an as, i.e, four ounces, not three, and so on.

Ross G.

P.S.  Not to be difficult, but I wouldn't mind seeing some examples of Head's usage from his time and before.


Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2014, 04:48:23 pm »
Latin "Tetrantes" is also used for "Tetras" by numismatists.
Vitruvius refers to the term "Tetrantes" to describe the quarter-circles by which are built the scrolls of Ionic capitals.
Tetras = 1/4 of Litra = 3 onkiai

But then, what does Hoover's Trionkia mean? Is it single or plural - or anything at all?

Ross G.

Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 05:47:15 pm »
Anyway, what did the Greeks themselves call these various types?
Did they use the terms trias and tetras, and if so, for which types - or don't we know?

Ross G.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2014, 08:03:26 am »
Latin "Tetrantes" is also used for "Tetras" by numismatists.
Vitruvius refers to the term "Tetrantes" to describe the quarter-circles by which are built the scrolls of Ionic capitals.
Tetras = 1/4 of Litra = 3 onkiai

But then, what does Hoover's Trionkia mean? Is it single or plural - or anything at all?

Ross G.

I think Hoover's trionkia means tetras.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2014, 08:14:18 am »
Anyway, what did the Greeks themselves call these various types?
Did they use the terms trias and tetras, and if so, for which types - or don't we know?

Ross G.

good question Ross!
I think this is a very interesting matter, for which unfortunately I have no time to do deep research now (at this moment the man-faced bull is the focus of all my time spent for study).
Those denominations have Greek etymologies so I think they were used by Greeks. About the system of Siceliot Litra, I know that Pollux reports that the Greek word "Onkia" has Italic origins, and the term was used by Siceliots to name the Attic "Chalcous". This textual evidence links this thread to the other discussion on this board: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=98438.0
Metrology is a complex matter, but fascinating, and very important to understand Numismatics and historic backgrounds.
I hope other forvm members can give contributions to these threads.

Regards
Nico



Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2014, 08:32:39 am »
Latin "Tetrantes" is also used for "Tetras" by numismatists.
Vitruvius refers to the term "Tetrantes" to describe the quarter-circles by which are built the scrolls of Ionic capitals.
Tetras = 1/4 of Litra = 3 onkiai

But then, what does Hoover's Trionkia mean? Is it single or plural - or anything at all?

Ross G.

I think Hoover's trionkia means tetras.


Actually Hoover equates it to tetrantes, which is (presumably) supposed to be the plural of tetras, but is trionkia (rather than trionkion or triokiai) a valid word, in either ancient or modern Greek?

Ross G.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2014, 09:18:19 am »
IMHO not valid, I could be wrong, but "trionkia" seems a latinization of ancient Greek.
I would say "trionkion" to describe a Greek coin of the value of 3 onkiai.

Best
Nico

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2014, 02:25:30 pm »
Anyway, what did the Greeks themselves call these various types?
Did they use the terms trias and tetras, and if so, for which types - or don't we know?

Ross G.

These terms are all reported in ancient sources (Pollux 79-82):
from Greek: litra, hemilitron, dizas, trias

Offline Brennos

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2014, 08:58:11 pm »
Thank you Taras for all the info  +++


Something surprised me in the Lazzarini article regarding the Akragas coinage .

Where the hell does he find that the average weight of the trias is 16g  ???


The heaviest trias on the Calciati is 13.78g

Just taking into account the trias found on acsearch, cng and the Calciati book i find an average weight of 14,14g and a median weight of 14,06g on a sample of 37 coins (i drop the heaviest and the lightest of the sample which is pretty standard in statistical analysis)

The sample is not large but it is larger than the sample he has used for his sellinous study  ;)



Even Calciati, despite that this is not consistent with his own figures, writes that the weight of the Litra is 45g , quoting the weight mentioned by Westermark in her 1977 article that is not very precise in the way that this number was found.

An other thing : What's this trias ???



Is it the so called "boat shape" trias ? the lighter weight for the "boat shape" seems irrelevant based on the datas.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2014, 01:00:34 pm »
Hi Brennos,
you have to read all the work, in which the author differentiates, for both Selinous and Akragas cast coinage, an earlier hard series:
Trias AW 15,34 (Standard Deviation 1,23g); median weight about 15g

He observed a progressive reduction in weight in the later series.

So you can not simply take all the specimens online and calculate the average weight, you have first to distinguish if they are earlier or later emissions.

Best :)
Nico

Offline glebe

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2014, 12:14:15 am »
If I read him correctly Lazzarini (p. 167) makes CNS 8 (Head r./Leaf) a tetras (3 pellets), in line perhaps with Calciati, but Hoover takes it to be a hexas (2 pellets).
My impression is that Hoover is correct here - see some examples below.
The weights would fit a (fairly) heavy hexas series quite well - much better than Lazzarini'a 24 examples of CNS 9 (Head fcg/Leaf w. 2 pellets) on p. 162-4, which really belong to the light series of the hexas, along with the other 9 examples of CNS 9 on p.166.
Lazzarini's final table makes a lot more sense after these swaps.

Ross G.

P.S. I have my doubts about the so-called "Pentonkiai" as well, which don't seem to fit either, but that's enough for the present.

Taras

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Re: Selinos early types
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2014, 10:47:59 am »
If I read him correctly Lazzarini (p. 167) makes CNS 8 (Head r./Leaf) a tetras (3 pellets), in line perhaps with Calciati, but Hoover takes

Hi Ross,
Hoover came after Calciati, who listed it as Hexas indeed (Calciati I.236.8), Lazzarini tried to give another theory, but it has not been widely accepted by all scholars.
I also think Calciati 8 is more likely an earlier heavy hexas, not a later light tetras.

Bye :)
Nico

 

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