Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 June!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 June!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Gordian's obverse die link AETERNITATI AVG/PMTRPVICOSIIPP/ADLOCVTIO AVGVSTI  (Read 1043 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline leseullunique

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
As far I know, AETERNITATI AVG was struck in the 1st officina and P M TR P VI COS II P P was struck in the 6th officina (I don't have the information for ADLOCVTIO type). I just found an obverse die link who let me think than it's impossible.

These sestertii are all extremely rare because on obverse is the long legend with FELIX.

I think these coins have same obverse die and like the obverse die is the fixed one, these coins must be from same officina

1) IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FELIX AVG
ADLOCVTIO AVGVSTI SC
RIC 313b/C 13
source http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1195277&partid=1&searchText=gordian&fromADBC=ad&toADBC=ad&numpages=10&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=1

2)IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FELIX AVG
AETERNITATI AVG
RIC 297*/C---
from my own collection

3)IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FELIX AVG
P M TR P VI COS II P P Gordian advancing right
RIC 308Aa/C---
source http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=117597

P M TR P VI COS II P P and ADLOCVTIO AVGVSTI are the only specimen I ever saw, I know 4 others specimen of AETERNITATI AVG which are probably all from same obverse die.

I would like to know which was the evidences used to assigning a type to an officina.

I also think than those coins which was minted in 243-244 can be a special issue used to go with the possible FELICITAS TEMPORVM issue of Tranquillina...

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Leseul wrote, "I would like to know what was the evidence used to assign a type to an officina."
 
A very good question! My answer is, unless the officina numbers are recorded on the coins themselves, we have no evidence whatsoever. So it is fatuous and pointless to try to assign officina numbers to the various types of Gordian III. The numbers are not on the coins, and we have no evidence for determining what they might have been!

Obverse dies were generally not confined to particular officinae. It is quite normal to find the same obverse dies used to strike several different contemporaneous reverse types, or reverses marked by several officinae. To explain this phenomenon, those who assume that officinae were separate sections of the mint that struck exclusively their own reverse type or coins with their own officina numbers, hypothesize that the dies may have been collected each night for safekeeping and then redistributed in the morning. Each officina would receive its own reverse dies, but the obverse dies were unmarked and could be used by any officina, so could be used with different reverse types or different officina numbers over the course of their lives.

But the assumption that different reverse types were regularly struck in separate workshops within the mint is ERRONEOUS! This is proved by the not inconsiderable number of Roman silver coins and especially Roman bronze coins, that have normal obverses but on the reverse two contemporaneous types struck one on top of the other. Leseul showed us one such sestertius of Gordian III about two weeks ago. This must mean, as Colin Kraay was the first to realize, that those two reverse dies with different types were being struck alternately and rapidly AT ONE AND THE SAME OBVERSE DIE! Far from the two types being struck individually in separate sections of the mint, they were being struck first one, then the other in rapid alternation at a single obverse die!

So what did officina numbers mean, and how was the production of the different types and denominations arranged at the mint? I don't know, but I also do not consider it an important question! We study coins to understand what contribution they can make to our knowledge of history. For that goal we need to discover what types were produced together, in what relative volume and at what time, and we need to compare the historical information conveyed by the coin types and legends with the record provided by the written sources and the inscriptions. Exactly how the mint produced the coins is, in the first place, of only minor interest and importance, and, in the second place, may well be unknowable!

I think, incidentally, that the Baldwin TR P VI sestertius was struck from a different obverse die than the two other coins you show above.
Curtis Clay

Offline leseullunique

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
Thanks again for this great answer.
Regards

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Are there any examples of coins being double struck with two reverses of the same type? If so, it would go some way to confirming that the reverses were distributed randomly, which would make sense.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Yes, two overstruck rev. dies of the same type also occur regularly.
Curtis Clay

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity