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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 110305 times)
Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #325 on: February 09, 2012, 12:22:24 am »

I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.

This one is particularly terrible.  Those faces are awful.

The reverse is also an invented non-existent type. No such shape of prow has ever been engraved by a Roman engraver, and no anonymous (no symbol) Republican As exists with a flat-topped prow and the denomination mark before the prow. It is a complete invention.

On another list someone shared pictures of four other recent bronzes (we all know which German firm these objects come from). Two were essentially genuine - limited cleaning, perhaps some minor strengthening, but not so awful, and in near VF condition. Two were charactertures like this - complete inventions and no longer Roman coins, and totally worthless. All four sold at about the same price (100 to 150 euros or so).

This tells me that
(a) ignorant collectors are being dreadfully deceived when they bid for these objects. They don't realise that some are carved lumps of bronzes and others are coins. They can't tell the difference
(b) wise collectors have an opportunity to still find some real coins between the cracks, but they need to look very carefully for signs of tooling
(c) if you are not sure whether you are a wise or ignorant collector then you should not be bidding

Oddly, this is a good basis for behaviour for eBay in general.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #326 on: February 09, 2012, 12:48:15 am »

I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.

Truly a tragic piece!


This tells me that
(a) ignorant collectors are being dreadfully deceived when they bid for these objects.

Not quite true... rather it must be blind, ignorant collectors. But even for a reader of Braille, I don't think this one would feel right.

I guess it just comes down to the natural order of things... fools and their money being easily separated.
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areich
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« Reply #327 on: February 09, 2012, 02:11:54 am »

Most coins are described as tooled. Frequently the people listing them just can't tell, many of them know nothing about coins. They do usually change the description when you tell them. The problem is that now this seller (or rather this selling platform within Ebay) is causing such tooled coins to be produced. If they really cared about and respected ancient coins they would stop, think and change something but obviously they don't.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #328 on: February 09, 2012, 06:11:03 am »

I wonder what caused such a change in the seller.   Went from decent dealer to purveyor of mangled money.  Years ago I bought a few coins (from them) that I'm quite happy with.  But none in the last several years due to both philosophic and resulting trust issues.  The namesake is still there so it can't be a change of management.  Maybe its purely economics, prices achieved exceed the cost of mutilation.
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« Reply #329 on: February 09, 2012, 06:29:51 am »

It's now just a sales platform within Ebay. You pay a percentage for the privilege to sell under the account. I don't know who is responsible for the floor auctions but the last one was pretty much the same as the Ebay offers. Slightly less obviously tooled but still very obvious to any advanced collector.
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areich
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« Reply #330 on: February 11, 2012, 11:57:14 am »

Just came across this one:

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=463465

Horrible!
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Optimo Principi
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« Reply #331 on: February 15, 2012, 01:32:39 pm »

Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.
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mwilson603
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« Reply #332 on: February 15, 2012, 03:31:52 pm »

Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.
I think it was "lightly tooled"......with a pneumatic road drill!   Grin
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Randygeki(h2)
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« Reply #333 on: February 15, 2012, 05:22:58 pm »

Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.

LOL Thats awesome
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #334 on: February 22, 2012, 06:11:00 am »

A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:

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Optimo Principi
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« Reply #335 on: February 22, 2012, 09:21:02 am »

There certainly seems to be a tooling production line of the Janus faces and Medusa Heads running somewhere! All thoroughly horrid.
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« Reply #336 on: February 22, 2012, 12:46:06 pm »

The tooled Janus types may have been tooled into complete slugs or even completely modern blank cast flans.
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #337 on: February 22, 2012, 01:12:02 pm »

I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?
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Gert

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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #338 on: February 25, 2012, 04:23:56 pm »

I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?

Agree. To consider them in any way authentic is certainly pushing the line between authenticity and fakery far too much towards the latter .  We have struck fakes, we have cast fakes, now we have tooled fakes.

Add them here.. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=23
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #339 on: March 02, 2012, 05:16:24 am »

This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400.   Undecided

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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #340 on: March 02, 2012, 11:47:16 am »

I have seen this engraver several times now and to the untrained eye the coins look nice, but areas that are worn flat, such as the arm, he cannot get sufficient rounding and that makes it bad tooling from two perspectives.... I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.


Frans
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #341 on: March 02, 2012, 12:22:05 pm »

I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.

Unfortunately that often seems to be the case. Of the four RR asses cited by Ghengis Jon,

A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:

the fourth of these had a quite nice (and actually untooled) and scarce reverse type - RRC 106/4 from Etruria with a club design. Had they left the coin alone, irrespective how bad the obverse was, it would have sold nicely on its reverse alone. Because they tooled and destroyed the obverse it's now worthless as a study object to anyone.
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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #342 on: March 02, 2012, 01:18:03 pm »

In our hobby ignorance is no bliss.......
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marcvs_traianvs
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« Reply #343 on: March 02, 2012, 04:15:02 pm »

This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400.   Undecided



I like the addition of the "otherwise extremely fine".  No...the only reason that coin looks like that is that its been completely altered.  And CAPPADOCIA reverses are scarce enough that an unaltered coin will bring you money. Annoying to say the least.

But as long as people keep spending money for coins to be damaged, its going to keep happening.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #344 on: March 04, 2012, 06:36:33 am »

Now currently north of 400 EURO with no end in sight.  I wish I had 'stupid money' that I could spend stupidly.

Trouble is, this kind of bidding will only encourage other toolers.  When ravaged coins command this kind of cash, I fear we'll see an influx of needlessly tooled coins.  <sigh>
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #345 on: March 06, 2012, 05:24:08 am »

Like this one, currently in excess of €500.  Why can't people leave well enough alone?  I doubt that collectors are saying "oooo, I'll give you only half as much because its not tooled, smoothed and re-patinated."

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« Reply #346 on: March 06, 2012, 07:53:53 am »

You should make that offer to one of these sellers Smiley
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #347 on: March 17, 2012, 04:13:22 am »

speechless
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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #348 on: March 17, 2012, 10:45:11 am »

I m h o definite proof that Neanderthal not only knew the use of money, but also that they still exist Undecided


Frans
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Optimo Principi
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« Reply #349 on: March 17, 2012, 10:56:12 am »

speechless

It's like they're not even trying anymore!

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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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