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Author Topic: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?  (Read 4225 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2015, 05:55:10 pm »
Beautiful coin SB, that patina gives it excellent eye appeal over a nicely struck coin. Congratulations.
I went through your collection the other night, you have some really nice coins.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline quadrans

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2015, 01:38:05 am »
Been away from the forum scene for a while, but I have been uploading my recent acquisitions.  To join the fun, here is my coin that I picked up recently:

Byzantine Empire: Alexius I Comnenus (1081-1118) Æ Tetarteron, Thessalonica (Sear-1931; DOC VI-40)

Obv: Crowned facing bust, holding cruciform scepter and globus cruciger
Rev: Jeweled cross with central X and globe at each extremity; C-Φ/AΛ-Δ in angles



Hi SpongeBob,

 It is very nice .. +++

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Quant.Geek

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2015, 11:49:41 am »
Thanks Simon and quadrans!  I am glad you like them.  Your collections are also outstanding and makes me envious at times  ;D  Both of you have really good eyes as well as luck finding some of those beauties...

Offline Simon

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2015, 12:21:30 am »
Nice addition to your collection Vlad,

 I have just finished an interesting book on the Byzantine economy hoping to solve the riddle of the coin weight variations of the late 11th century but unfortunately nothing definitive for this time period. However it did leave me to believe each city had its own economy, the gold coinage was state controlled and the gold was mined and minted by the government but it also mentions that independent contractors were in charge of mining the lesser metals. Perhaps they minted the coins of AE as well.?

This fact and the knowledge of  Alexius I had his relatives control of the Byzantine territories again leaves me to believe they were minted to each communities needs with his permission. This would be easily answered if we knew were each coin was found but being at the end of the chain as collectors we lose that knowledge.

These weight variations were not done by accident, scale weights seem not to be that rare and the visible differences in the coins I find it hard to believe the common man would not notice. Especially since the coins were in circulation at the same time, their circulation must have been limited to certain areas.

 

A few weeks ago I had an interesting conversation  with a gentleman with a PHD in economics that makes me question my previous quoted statement , even though he was not an ancient  coin collector he did collect post 1500 CE coins, when I discussed tetartera with him and my questions about the weight variations he immediately suggested that these coins were not a fixed denomination but simply based on weight.

This really had me think about the denomination and about weight variations of coins made outside of Constantinople (the coins from Constantinople tend to be much more consistent and we also know those coins had a silver content that varied the same way the silver content in trachea. These coins and their design were regulated).

However even the coin this discussion based on SB S-1931 has shown just from Forum members collective collections alone to vary in weight from 1g to 6g, some imitative but weight variations on coins that are not imitative we are still talking a considerable and noticeable difference in these coins. When Hendy originally came up with the idea of half tetartera he took groups of tetartera styles and used   their average weight to create two denominations from the coins we call Tetarteron , he even played with the idea of their being multiple denominations of tetartera, by the time her wrote VOL IV of DOC he broke them down to three denominations , Metropolitan tetartera with small silver content, AE tetartera from Thessalonica and half tetartera for various unknown Greek mints and Thessalonica. His theroy on the breakdown of the denomination was logical but what if the AE tetartera was not a face value denomination at all, Unlike previous Byzantine coinage  or even our current coinage it lacks a face vale ( A USA penny says 1 cent on it) What if it was truly based on weight exchange alone?

I realize this makes the whole series a bit of a mess but it does help explain the mystery of the weight variations of this coin and it also gives more of an explanation on how all these different weight variations could could circulate at one time.

Just sharing a thought, I realize we are talking about a medieval penny that was part of the country's economy for only a century with barely a mention in any of its history but this denomination or denominations was issued in the millions and was part of the everyday persons life. It has only been in the last few decades that collectors have taken notice and interest in Byzantine bronze coinage, this is just one of the many riddles we are left with.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline B*Numis

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2015, 02:57:01 am »
The tetartera (especially under alexis) are very long issue (unlike the Roman coins that were for example, usually, struck on one occasion or period). With all the economic crises and changes established by Alexis,  is normal that the same type of coins vary in weight (since that same iconography was issued for many years). This also explains the difference alloy that is often encountered (we call you back Alexis was shortage of metals for struck coins.... it sometimes took the relics of the clergy or others).

Sorry for my English !
Best
Besançon Numismatique
www.bnumis.com

Offline Simon

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 08:36:20 pm »
Hi Cedric, the state handled the mines for gold and silver but private industry handled the other metals, since we are primarily speaking of coins minted outside of Constantinople, the coinage such as sb-1931 varies far too much for them to be regulated. I don't believe it was a shortage of metal but just different mints or they were struck at the sites they were mined at.

When you look at coin such as these I find it hard to believe that their circulation would be restricted to a region ( Like the game of writing on a dollar bill to see how far it traveled.these coins would have left their region in simple trades) In order to keep some sort of fairness in a trade they must have been based on weight, not the face value. This would not be only Alexius coinage but Manuel's and Andronicus as well.

The Constantinople issues remain very consistent in size and weight, they also had added silver so the state more than likely minted those exclusively.

I believe many coins were minted at Thessalonica but those designs might have been imitated by other mints or private industry causing the variations in weight. I would find it very hard to believe that a common man would accept these in some cases huge variations at face value.

However I think John II coinage was not included in this theory because his coins seem to remain very consistent and seem to be made without these variations at all. The only coin I have found from John II that does not fit is this Constantinople minted coin that is almost exactly half the weight of the norm for this type. The example is VF and their is no way it differed from wear alone.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122175


From what I read Alexius reign was very short of money when he took over, in fact the raided the churches to get the needed gold and silver but by the coin reform almost a decade latter this was not the case. I believe examples of overstrikes on earlier coinage was to cover the shortage of the newly created denomination.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-116787

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-120533

In both cases these coins fit the normal weight examples but both are clearly overstrikes on partial follis.

So what I am trying to explain why the coins from  from Constantinople were taken at a face value because of their standards that they were up held to and the consistent weights. However the other coinage created outside the city was not taken at face value but by weight because of the inconsistent weights.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2015, 11:23:23 pm »
A very good and detailed read that adds to the subject and far beyond. Just found it tonight. Thought I would share.

https://www.academia.edu/9521059/J._Baker_Money_and_Currency_in_Medieval_Greece_in_N._Tsougarakis_and_P._Lock_A_Companion_to_Latin_Greece_Leiden_2015_

Once again it has added another dimension to problems of the weights and production of tetartera, the author gives the coin  a stronger importance in the Byzantine economy and most importantly it brings up a longer circulation for the denomination that was issued and it discusses the concept of imitations of coins of rulers long since passed. coins of Alexius I and John II were still in usage after the first fall of Constantinople in 1204  With these thoughts in mind it makes my riddles of the denomination almost impossible to ever find a definitive answer. 
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2015, 02:07:27 pm »
My new one  ;)
19 mm 2.06 g

Offline Simon

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Re: Alexius I SB 1931 . Imitation or Provincial ?
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2015, 11:42:55 pm »
Nice Vlad! Again the minor variations of these coins is numerous.

 I just got this one. It reminds me of the one on the first page of this discussion. The cross is a bit bizarre. Has that German look. 2.00 gr 18.67mm
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

 

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