The copper copies of the John Vatatzes hyperpyron S.2073

[glebe]

Readers will be familiar with the recently offered copper versions of the John Vatatzes hyperpyron S.2073.
Normally the curvature of the dies of trachies don't match, so that these coins are usually struck twice - once on the left hand side and once on the right, producing the typical double struck appearance of these types, particularly on the obverse.
However, I've just noticed that all the recent copper versions of the  Vatatzes hyperpyron seem to be struck only once.
This does not inspire confidence in their authenticity.
The most recent offerings of these types from Vergina can be seen below.

Ross G.

[joma-tk]

It would be really interesting if Dr Ilya Prokopov could comment on these...
tk

[Orthodoxcoins]

 
I'm not Dr and my name is not Ilya, but I has a possibility / 1 month ago/ to choose from more then 1000 pieces of this "coin" and to take 2 p.  for  1 euro each!
I can not see the need of any discussion! ))))))

[glebe]

Good point, but it would be interesting to know why anyone would want to go to the very considerable trouble of producing a whole lot of different fakes of a type which basically doesn't exist.
Also, exactly how were these types produced? - on the face of it there seem to be large number of different dies - were they struck from real dies, or are they cast copies of some kind? Either way it seems someone has found a way of producing large numbers of fairly convincing (and varying) fakes.
It would be also useful to know exactly what they are made of.

Ross G.

[Orthodoxcoins]

Yes, that are the questions. Fake or not - it's clear!

Good point, but it would be interesting to know why anyone would want to go to the very considerable trouble of producing a whole lot of different fakes of a type which basically doesn't exist.

Why? 
Few thousands euro  are good money!
I think all this different dies /about 12-15/ have been made for gold Vatatzes fakes, sold years before.
In Bulgaria you can buy authentic gold Vatatzes for 100-150-200 euro. Look at the world market prices! It comes cheaper to buy from dealers!:))))))

Also, exactly how were these types produced? - on the face of it there seem to be large number of different dies - were they struck from real dies, or are they cast copies of some kind?

Yes, all this fakes are struck!

 Either way it seems someone has found a way of producing large numbers of fairly convincing (and varying) fakes.

That is the real reason for uneasiness!!!


It would be also useful to know exactly what they are made of.

Some kind of copper alloy. Fortunately - very bad patinated!

Val

[glebe]

So finally we are getting the real story - these dies were originally made for fake hyperpyra (or maybe gold plated copper coins?).
Obviously we now need to watch out for these fake hyperpyra, which presumably will not be double struck.
Note also that the folds of Christ's clothing on these types is fairly distinctive, and also that Christ's head is rather more dotty and less fully detailed on the fakes than on most real coins.

Ross G.

[Obryzum]

I thought that double striking was inevitable when striking scyphate shaped coins.  If these are struck, how did they manage to avoid double strikes -- and why would they try?  It seems that double striking would make the coins look more real.

[joma-tk]

More questions...
1. OK, let us come to the conclusion that the dies we see these days (used to produce the copper coins we see mainly from Vergina),  were originally made in order to produce fake hyperpyra.
I have seen quite a few of these hyperpyra and I guess the same goes for the majority of the people watching this forum.
You may have notice that these hyperpyra come out of no more than a handfull of dies.
With these copper coins, I have not yet seen two alike and we see 4 new each week!!
Moreover, the fake hyperpyra we have seen , do not look to have come from the copper dies.
As Ross said, the Christ's head on all the copper specimens is very dotty (that was the first thing I also noticed when I bought some of these).
I haven't seen fake hyperpyra like this.

2. We have seen that the copper ones, differ alot in dimensions. For coppers that is not a big deal. But for gold???
If these  dies were used also to produce gold coins, we should see big weight differences which of course is not accepted.

I have not written all the above in order to claim that the copper ones are authentic.
I believed in their authenticity some weeks ago, but it is very hard to keep this position
after Vergina's sales and Val's testimonials.

I just want to complete the puzzle and it is still difficult...
 

[limes]

hello

I'm the friend mentioned by Antvwala in the topic of the  August 11,2008
" An inedit trachy of John III Vatatzes (Nicea)?".
I have purchased 40 of the 94 trachys of John III Vatat-  offered for sale by Vergina at that
time. I was intrigued to see that kind of trachy "officially" does not exist!! and I wanted
to see as much possible to make comparison.
Nearly a year later Vergina it sells other lots!
The latter,in my opinion, does not seem genuine and could be part of a thousand mentioned
by Val. Among those that I bought me a year ago and these now proposed,I think  that
there are significant differences.
I do not want to say who are my authentic,I wanted only to have your opinion!

Will place six for a comparision.

thank you very much

limes

[limes]

I'm sorry... I forgot , double struck .. to the right.

limes

[glebe]

More questions...
1. OK, let us come to the conclusion that the dies we see these days (used to produce the copper coins we see mainly from Vergina),  were originally made in order to produce fake hyperpyra.
I have seen quite a few of these hyperpyra and I guess the same goes for the majority of the people watching this forum.
You may have notice that these hyperpyra come out of no more than a handfull of dies.
With these copper coins, I have not yet seen two alike and we see 4 new each week!!
Moreover, the fake hyperpyra we have seen , do not look to have come from the copper dies.
As Ross said, the Christ's head on all the copper specimens is very dotty (that was the first thing I also noticed when I bought some of these).
I haven't seen fake hyperpyra like this.

I agree - I downloaded over 100 Vatatzes hyperpyra from Coin Archives and none of them looked like the recent Vergina copper coins (most of them were also obviously double struck).

2. We have seen that the copper ones, differ alot in dimensions. For coppers that is not a big deal. But for gold???
If these  dies were used also to produce gold coins, we should see big weight differences which of course is not accepted.

With late Roman and early Byzantine gold coins (solidi) it is true that the weights and fineness were closely controlled, but with late Byzantine hyperpyra the weights and fineness can vary a lot (you sometimes see Vatatzes hyperpyra weighing over 5 gms, for example). These later coins must have been exchanged by weight and fineness - this is confirmed by merchants' records of the time which show that they were very aware of the differing gold content of the various gold issues.

I have not written all the above in order to claim that the copper ones are authentic.
I believed in their authenticity some weeks ago, but it is very hard to keep this position
after Vergina's sales and Val's testimonials.

I just want to complete the puzzle and it is still difficult...
 

Ross G.

[glebe]

The Antwala/Limes coins certainly seem to be quite different, in both style and workmanship, from the recent Vergina types. At first glance, there's nothing about them that clearly says they are fakes, although overall they seem to be in rather better condition than most coins of this period - they (or at least the ones we've seen) aren't clipped or broken for example.


Ross G.

[glebe]

I thought that double striking was inevitable when striking scyphate shaped coins.  If these are struck, how did they manage to avoid double strikes -- and why would they try?  It seems that double striking would make the coins look more real.

The point is that the fake modern dies all have the same curvature and hence don't need double striking.

Ross G.

[limes]

Looking at in detail is difficult find two that have the same design (same coinage),
and for the sold in 2008,both for those now sold,  perhaps the same number 7-9-15,
also does not see.
This is curious for coins which are almost certainly fakes.
But.. what they have worked... for a few dollars ??

post.  sold in 2008

limes

[limes]

I'm sorry  these are 1-2-3-4

[limes]

They are 

[limes]

and.. these sold now..

[joma-tk]

So much work for a dollar/piece......

[glebe]

Yes, your #7 of 2008 seems to equal #9 of 2009 (and #15, which is the same die as #9, I think), and also #6 of 2008 may equal #10 of 2009.

In the recent 2009  coins I see 4 obverse dies and maybe 8 reverse dies (your 7 plus maybe one more) as shown below -  the extra reverse die is bottom left.

So it seems that at least some of the 2008 coins came from the same dies as the recent coins, despite the different patina and (seemingly) much poorer condition.

Also, looking at the 2008 coins again I see that while one or two of them seem to show double striking, most of them, like the recent coins, do not.

Ross G.

[limes]

For complete information
A year ago when  I bought these 40 coins,because as we had were illegible, I cleaned
with ammonia  and flakes of iron.  because the patina was quite touhg, later to give
them a pleasing appearance,I painted with oil colors, accordingly patina you see is fake. 
You put the photos as they were before and after cleaning.
The remaining traces of patina are original, and the colors of the photos are real!

limes

[limes]

after cleaning

[glebe]

Limes' last lot of cleaned coins from 2008 are quite interesting.
The top three are all from the same dies, and I show one of these below, together with a coin from the recent (2009) Vergina offerings on Ebay.
Note that these two coins share the same reverse, but have different obverses.
Note also how the top one looks quite old and worn, as if it had been in the ground a long time, but the other one looks quite sharp and fresh (even under the fake patina). It therefore seems that the aged appearance of the 2008 coins, while quite convincing at first site, is also quite artificial. 
Incidentally, the last of the cleaned coins is rather odd - at first glance it looks double struck, but I think that's actually the way the obverse die was cut. It would be interesting to know whether there are any other coins from the same die among the 2008 coins.

Ross G.

P.S.  I've just noticed something else - the reverses and obverses of the 2008 coins are all(?) the same way up, while of course on real Byzantine coins, they are, with very few exceptions, in opposite directions. The 2009 coins on the other hand seem to have mostly got it right - i.e, the reverses are inverted with respect to the obverses.

[limes]

P.S.  I've just noticed something else - the reverses and obverses of the 2008 coins are all(?) the same way up, while of course on real Byzantine coins, they are, with very few exceptions, in opposite directions. The 2009 coins on the other hand seem to have mostly got it right - i.e, the reverses are inverted with respect to the obverses.

This fact I had already pointed in a previous topic!

Other clean coins:
the 8-9-10 I did not scracth with flakes of iron,but only immersed in ammonia, that did
not affect the patina,so we can assume that  this is its original! 
The 8 and 9 have traces of silvering (higlighted).


Can not be that these coins are not of Nicea? but some small empire near,who copied the hyperpera of John III ?

Regards

limes

[limes]

 nove e dieci

[joma-tk]

Here we go again!
tk
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]