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Author Topic: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors  (Read 2778 times)

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Offline jmuona

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An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« on: April 05, 2018, 08:38:03 am »
I have added an old Otho fake to my "Modern Otho forgeries" gallery. It has been identified as a "Tardani" fake. To me this piece is important as it clearly showed that some people doing these things had really good knowledge of what could have existed - and then made them.
There can be little doubt this was produced to fool collectors and it certainly did, first a major company and then a collector who loved to think it was real.
By the way, why is Tardani's real name still a "secret". After all, quite a few people know and I have definitely seen it in a public context as well.
s.
Jyrki Muona

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Offline okidoki

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 08:39:52 am »
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 09:39:00 am »
Good eye Jyrki, ingenious fake.

Offline Carausius

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 10:48:28 am »
Are you confident that the Galba is genuine?

Offline jmuona

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 12:15:58 pm »
Well, actually yes, I think so, but as I have seen (no images retained) two more later on, I have not thought about this before. I did not put this in the fakes forum as it is really unlikely that anyone would stumble to one.
Most Victory Galbas are very late from his reign and this type was re-cut for Otho leaving traces of P and/or R visible. All re-cut ones are of RIC 17 type as the other Otho Victories had the goddess without globe or facing right.

Offline quadrans

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2018, 04:46:58 pm »
I agree the Galba is OK,   +++

Q.
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Offline jmuona

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 05:50:02 am »
One thing should be added. I started to suspect the coin only after finding out the weight. Frank Kovacs identified the maker for me at NYINC. After getting to know more about "Tardani" I became convinced he was right. In a way it is a pity I could not keep the coin, as it cost a lot of money and I had very little. I returned it to the seller.
Jyrki Muona

Offline curtislclay

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2018, 01:49:46 pm »
Jyrki,

How does Frank K. know that the Otho fake is by Tardani? I have heard that all of Tardani's fake dies were acquired by an Italian museum or maybe by the Italian Numismatic Society, but as far as I know they have never been published.

I am not convinced by your suggestion that this fake was created by a forger who had noticed the genuine Otho rev. dies taken over from Galba but with P R recut to OTHONIS, so decided to create a new variety based on a similar die of Galba but with unaltered legend, in the expectation of being able to sell it for a high price to a specialized collector. I think that a hundred years ago, just as today, there were virtually no collectors who would have been willing to pay a substantial premium for such a minor new variety, so there would have been little motive for an intelligent forger to create such a coin.

Best regards,

Curtis
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Offline jmuona

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2018, 06:41:47 am »
Curtis,

I cannot remember well - many years have passed - but I think Frank has seen them. This particular one perhaps not, but there was something else. I must try to ask when/if I see him again. I have a vague recollection he mentioned that Tardani liked to combine published aureus dies in his creations (as was done here) and make denarii with them (at the time same dies were used for both). Also, I think the profile of the letters was unusual.

As to the rest, speculation for sure. The Otho RIC 17 die is rare and about a third of the known ones appear to be recut Galba "PR" dies. If randomly chosen, the most likely candidate would have been an unaltered/altered Otho die. To choose a Galba reverse die and form a combination not known is odd already. It becomes more than odd when the choice was a Galba reverse die that had been recut for use with Otho in Rome. To me this suggests intent.

Whether someone was prepared to pay a lot for such a thing or not, I have no idea and I do not know any refrences discussing that. It may well have been just something the forger chose for fun - "only I know this inside story" type of thing. We will never know, of course.

Jyrki

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2018, 07:56:29 am »
Quote from: okidoki on April 05, 2018, 08:39:52 am
+++

maybe better if you post it here

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?board=9.0

Actually the most important place to post it here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=0
(Fake Coin Reports) I already did it.
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Offline Din X

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2024, 10:20:26 am »
I have been browsing old catalogues and I have found 2 related coins.

A Denarius from same obverse and reverse die Sally Rosenberg Griechische und römische Münzen Versteigerung 8. September 1924 (Katalog Nr. 55)

And

Aureus from same obverse die otto_helbing_nachf 1927_10_24_0353


Offline Din X

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2024, 10:21:00 am »
The 2 plates

Offline Din X

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2024, 11:28:59 am »
I have found several Otho aurei with this obverse die and they look a little bit strange.

If you have 3 aurei from the same dies, all on very very extremely small flans and all have about the same centering, no traces of the dotted border visible on the obverse it is strange.
Strange lines on the first aureus over the second A of Caesar and on reverse missing metal top of letters P R .




Offline Din X

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2024, 11:35:17 am »

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2024, 01:05:51 pm »
Dear Group,

For clarity, the denarius forgery that started this thread is not an obverse die match to the denarius and aureus found by Din X.*  The letters "AESA" in the obverse legend were clearly cut closer to Otho's head on the die used for both auction catalog coins.  Also, the 'S' is much straighter and does not partly hover over the last wave of hair.  As for the portrait itself on the auction catalog coins, the lines signifying the texture of the hair seem to point differently at the very back of the head

Interestingly, the reverse die belonging to the Sally Rosenberg denarius looks die identical to the forged specimen, as stated by Din X.

Hope these observations help a little.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan       

*(Edit)  Note: Unless the obverse die used in the striking of the forged denarius was created via die transfer from the others and then patched up/tweaked manually.  That may explain why those letters look so different (including their positions) while the others appear seemingly identical to the auction catalog coins.

Offline Din X

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Re: An old ingenious Otho fake to attract collectors
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2024, 01:39:43 pm »
I think that the aurei (except the authentic BNF specimen different dies) are from the same dies as the Denarii and the pictures are a little bit misleading.

The reverse legend "PR" does not exist for Otho only for Galba.

There is not such a Otho coin listed in RIC and these Otho coins with this legend are known for a long time, so they must be considered fakes, if not added to RIC but known for a long time.
"jmuona" has already shown the die link to the authentic Galba denarius and so the correct die combination for this "PR" reverse die.

So the 2 "PR" Denarii are fakes by Tardani and it would be very strange if they would be only reverse die matches and not obverse die matches, too.

Even if you think that the Rosenberg Tardani fake is from another obverse die, this Rosenberg obverse die is matching the aurei (but of course not the BNF specimen from different dies). ^^

Is see no differences which can not be explaind by pictures (different settings and angle), striking and die wear between the denarii and aurei dies.

It is extremely likely that Tardani used on aureus from these dies to make transfer dies, it is even possible that one of these aurei posted here has been used.

And now we have the problem that we have these aurei  non has any part of dotted border on obverse visible and we know that Tardani made transfer dies.


 

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