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Author Topic: My Taras collection  (Read 52128 times)

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Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2015, 02:39:37 pm »
I have six staters (four of which are "Oikistes" types, so also plate coins on NNM 15, of which I have the 1922 original edition too  8) ) and only two fractionals   :(

I hope I will add many more in the next years. In my plans one day they will be stored up at their hometown.

Bye my friends
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #101 on: July 17, 2015, 04:06:35 pm »
I have six staters (four of which are "Oikistes" types, so also plate coins on NNM 15, of which I have the 1922 original edition too  8) )

wow man, that's pretty impressive!

Quote
and only two fractionals   :( 

oh, i don't think that's quite correct.   ;)

Quote
I hope I will add many more in the next years. In my plans one day they will be stored up at their hometown.

i think this is a great plan, one which i whole-heartedly support.
perhaps someday our collections will be displayed side-by-side. 

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2015, 06:44:14 am »

perhaps someday our collections will be displayed side-by-side. 

~ Peter

I think so my friend.  ;)

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2015, 01:24:53 pm »
another new fraction arrived a couple of days ago, Vlasto 1464. this one features a facing Athena which i adore.
the style is not as fine as my other Tarentine facing-head, but it is still pretty and also rather scarce. unfortunately this coin is not in great condition, being heavily worn and slightly pitted. it does look better in hand, but only slightly.
i've had my eye on this piece for some time, but it was offered for what i considered far too much money for the grade. the dealer finally lowered the price awhile back and i almost pulled the trigger, but still i hesitated because of the condition.
however when he recently lowered it still further i could no longer hold back. i can resist anything but temptation!   :evil:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122374

i am still awaiting some positive news from the post office about my missing 5th century didrachm which should have arrived 2 months ago, but it is not looking good.   :(   this coin was supposed to be the 40th entry to my Taras gallery, but at this rate i will be lucky to list it as my 50th, if ever.
*sigh*

meanwhile enjoy your browse, and there is cheese and wine at the back of the gallery.   8)
~ Peter


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2015, 07:32:22 pm »
my newest Tarentine coin is also my oldest didrachm...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122839

i'm not sure how to precisely attribute this one however, as it is apparently not listed in Vlasto. but i do love the type, with the archaic dolphin rider and the really cool hippocamp.
this is in fact a replacement coin, since the first one i ordered like this was lost in the mail! after more than 2 1/2 months of waiting, contacting the post office (what a run-around!), contacting US Customs, and then initiating a postal search, all with no positive results, i finally got in touch with the dealer, who had graciously paid the original postage for me. fortunately it was insured, and so i took a credit and applied it to this coin. thank you very much to the dealer who made this rather scarey situation as smooth as could be expected.  :)

the first Tarentine didrachms which were not of the earliest and extremely rare double incuse style were dolphin rider/wheel types, with the hippocamp reverse coming immediately after the beginning of the 5th century. however these smaller flan hippocamps came slightly later still, circa 470-450 BC. while barely 17mm in diameter, it is quite a fat chunk of silver!

check it out, and feel free to comment!

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2015, 04:00:46 pm »
my newest Tarentine coin is a high relief 4th century BC didrachm by the KAL engraver!
this was a birthday present from my best friend, and i couldn't be happier to add it to my collection. in fact i'm more excited about this coin than i have been for some time!
it is a right-facing dolphin, my first Period IV didrachm, and a beautifully scenic reverse. but perhaps most importantly, at least for a collector of Tarentine coins, both sides are signed by the so-called KAL engraver, to my mind the finest coin artist in Magna Graecia. his simple, everyday themes were so perfectly executed that the moments seem to come alive, taking me back in time like no other ancient coins can do. and why else do we collect these little round canvases?

Sir Arthur Evans believed that this reverse depicts the polis of Taras mourning the death of Archidamos, the king of Sparta who brought his mercenary army to southern Italy to help against the combined forces of the Lucanians and Messapians during the first Lucanian war, and who was killed in the ensuing battle. as such it depicts an emotion as much as a static scene, which KAL has captured so beautifully in the contemplative and pensive attitude of the dolphin rider.
can you tell i really love this coin?!   :)

enjoy...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-123389

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2015, 12:55:51 pm »
another birthday present, this one a scarce diobol showing Herakles kneeling left...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-123454

there are very few left-facing Herakles reverses in the Vlasto catalog, and this appears to be the only one with Herakles kneeling.
cool!   8)

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Campano-Tarentine didrachm
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2015, 04:08:45 pm »
today i am happy to present my latest coin from Taras, a 3rd century didrachm of the type known as 'Campano-Tarentine'...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124048

the unusual (for Taras) portrait obverse caused some 19th century numismatists to declare this an alliance issue between Taras and Neapolis, due to the similarity between this type and the Nymph/MFB coins of Campania. however there is no history of such an alliance, and the nymph on the obverse of this coin is more likely Satyra, the mother of Taras.
the heavier weight is interesting though, and probably means that this series was struck to circulate throughout southern Italy rather than just within Taras itself, which had switched to a lower standard at the time of the Pyrrhic wars.
there is a prior discussion of this type with some astute observations by Nico toward the end of this thread...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=78472.0

a curious issue in any case, and one which was struck from many die combinations, some beautiful and some less so. i personally think this one is a classic example of Hellenistic portraiture. the toning is nice too!   ;)
enjoy!

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #108 on: November 07, 2015, 05:01:19 pm »
today i added another obol of the rather common kantharos type, but this one appears to be an unpublished variety...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124452

at least i have not been able to find another like it anywhere in my library or on any of the online references to which i have access.
if anyone can provide me with a better attribution i would appreciate it.

thanks,
~ Peter

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2015, 04:14:25 pm »
I always enjoyed watching these little Greek coins   +++ :) ;)

 Congratulation

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=31252

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2015, 05:54:07 pm »
thanks Q.   :)

i have another one on the way which is less than half this size!

~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2015, 04:39:52 pm »
the latest addition to my Taras gallery is this strange little hemiobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124593

the meaning of the symbols escape me, nor can i find anything written about this type. why the cup? what does the 'P' in the wreath stand for? (other symbols are known) is it even Tarentine?

whatever the answers to these questions may be, i have had this rare type targeted for some time and was finally able to find one at an almost reasonable price.
and that makes me happy!   :)

~ Peter

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2015, 01:05:17 am »
Hmm another interesting and rare small coin,
very nice
 Congratulation.. +++

 Q.
 
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #113 on: January 25, 2016, 04:49:30 pm »
it took a few months but i just added my latest Tarentine coin, a didrachm from the penultimate period of the cities mint...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-126713

Evans separated the post-Pyrrhic era into two categories; Roman Alliance I and Roman Alliance II (both of reduced weight). the criteria for the separation was artistic style, with the Period VIII coins being far inferior to the coins we are used to seeing from the prior century. but the many of the coins of Period IX are of a much finer style, representing something of a renaissance during this final era of Tarentine autonomy.
the coins of Period X, those issued during the Punic occupation of 212-209, are struck using similar themes but of a much degraded style. in fact the Horseman shown here may represent the model for the inferior coins that followed.

Evans terminates the Tarentine series with the alleged closing of the mint in 228, but hoard evidence greatly suggests that these Period IX issues were struck right up until the the city was under the control of Hannibal. this makes more sense to me than the re-opening of a long disused facility.

in any case i think this specimen represents one of the nicer types from this era, bringing back the animation of the earlier types. i also like that the city was once again producing beautiful coins right up until the end.

and this is the 50th coin in my Taras collection!

enjoy, and don't forget to press the Position + button to put the gallery into its proper order.

~ Peter


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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2016, 11:10:16 am »
it took a few months but i just added my latest Tarentine coin, a didrachm from the penultimate period of the cities mint...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-126713

Evans separated the post-Pyrrhic era into two categories; Roman Alliance I and Roman Alliance II (both of reduced weight). the criteria for the separation was artistic style, with the Period VIII coins being far inferior to the coins we are used to seeing from the prior century. but the many of the coins of Period IX are of a much finer style, representing something of a renaissance during this final era of Tarentine autonomy.
the coins of Period X, those issued during the Punic occupation of 212-209, are struck using similar themes but of a much degraded style. in fact the Horseman shown here may represent the model for the inferior coins that followed.

Evans terminates the Tarentine series with the alleged closing of the mint in 228, but hoard evidence greatly suggests that these Period IX issues were struck right up until the the city was under the control of Hannibal. this makes more sense to me than the re-opening of a long disused facility.

in any case i think this specimen represents one of the nicer types from this era, bringing back the animation of the earlier types. i also like that the city was once again producing beautiful coins right up until the end.

and this is the 50th coin in my Taras collection!

enjoy, and don't forget to press the Position + button to put the gallery into its proper order.

~ Peter




 Congratulation Peter,
 Nice collection..

It's time to celebrate... :)

 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=31252

Offline okidoki

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2016, 02:06:33 pm »
Impessive collection, there is so much detail, even on those small coins
All the Best,
Eric
There are no strangers, only friends you do not know yet.

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Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2016, 01:16:49 am »
thank you both.  :)
i'm constantly amazed at how intricate some of those fractions can be!

~ Peter

Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2016, 08:30:22 am »
Dear Peter,
it has been a long time now I have not been present in this thread, although, you know, being one of my favorites. During the last months I had to use all my numismatic free-time fixated on man-faced bulls with my friend Nick Molinari, to reach the finish line of our work, which finally we almost see.

Well, first of all congratulations for all your new amazing acquisitions, your collection is growing more and more beautiful and interesting.
In the future time I will check my notes and my volumes to see if I find something interesting on the types you acquired, or to give you some more references to add in descriptions.


Today I want to use my time to comment on the hemiobol you posted here:


the latest addition to my Taras gallery is this strange little hemiobol...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-124593

the meaning of the symbols escape me, nor can i find anything written about this type. why the cup? what does the 'P' in the wreath stand for? (other symbols are known) is it even Tarentine?

whatever the answers to these questions may be, i have had this rare type targeted for some time and was finally able to find one at an almost reasonable price.
and that makes me happy!   :)

~ Peter





To my knowledge there is no specific terminology for this vascular form, beyond the generic term "one-handled jug", used by archaeologists to define these kind of pottery attested in southern Italy among the tableware ceramics found in tombs dating back since the early Iron Age.
About the centuries related to the hemiobol, we know some samples found in samnite tombs, dated 5th c. BC: also many samples have been found during excavations at the Kerameikòs of Metapontion, dating 4th BC; and a specimen was found in a tomb at Tarentum dated by archaeologists to the second quarter of 4th BC.

About the coin, the denomination hemiobol is correct, it corresponds to 1/24 stater (a.w. 0.27g), on the weight standard defined as Nomos Italiotikòs. These fractionals were issued starting shortly after the foundation of the tarentine colony of Heraclea, so the correct dating should be c. 430-380 BC.
Many variants are known for both obv and rev, with different symbols and letters in field and/or within wreath (one variant has no letters or symbols within wreath), so the meaning of the letters within wreath is to be identified not as symbolic devices, but rather as signs of recognition relating either to magistrates or workshops.
The only constant devices are the main types: the jug on obverse, and the wreath on reverse. Let's try now to make some iconological assumptions on them.
The symbology of the wreath is simple to solve, as it is clearly a symbol of cyclicality related to passage and rebirth, of near eastern origin, as seen on archaic levantine gems found in the tyrrhenian area. (its symbology related to victory is later).
But what is the meaning of the jug?
The solution is seen on the coinage of Heraclea Lucaniae and Kroton. See the pics I attached to this post, they are all coins issued from 5th to 3rd BC. In all of these types the jug in question is always connected to Herakles, we can state it is an attribute of the hero, we see it in field during his battle with the nemean lion, and holded in his hand during his rest after the victory, and even during a ritual libation he performs. A further evidence that this kind of jug was an attribute of Herakles for the Greeks living in south Italy comes from a rare bronze type issued at Heraklea, where we see it depicted on obverse, paired with bow and quiver, which we all know to be, along with the club, typical attributes of the hero! We even know that at Tarentum Herakles had a strong cult, with worship places in which were performed rites of passage from youth to adulthood. These jugs were probably used during those rites of passage, as we see on the type from Heraklea. These jugs were also buried in tombs, probably as symbol of death as passage to another dimension.
So dear Peter, now we can possibly assume that the symbology of the types of your coin is to be related to the hope of the Tarentine citizens, asking to Herakles a good passage for their polis, just at a time when, by the founding of the newborn colony Heraklea, its political power in the area was growing stronger.

Any comment is welcome.

Here is a list of references for almost all the known samples and variants of this hemiobol (if anybody knows any more, or if anyone should find errors in my list, please help me to update it): HN Italy 867; Vlasto 1739-1753; Pozzi 429; Weber 577-578; BMC 464-472; Winterthur 313-314; McClean 780-781; Torino 825; Napoli Fiorelli 2144-2148; Napoli Santangelo 3321-3325; SNG Evelpidis 178; SNG Brasil 362; SNG Hungary 199-200; SNG Fitzwilliam 373-374; SNG Lockett 309; SNG Ashmolean 593-595; SNG Manchester 151; SNG Dreer 227; SNG Munchen 794-795; SNG Tubingen 418; SNG Cop 1019-1022; SNG France 2224-2228

High-res pics of the SNG France specimens are available at these links:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85981404.r=tarente%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral%20995
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8598139g.r=tarente%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral%20994
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8475209z.r=tarente%20luynes%20376
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84752074.r=tarente%20luynes%20374
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8475208j.r=tarente%20luynes%20375


The informations I provided in this post are summarized from my notes for a future work on the coinage of Magna Graecia, using for reference and bibliography various sylloges, catalogues, and the works of the following authors: F. D'andria, A. Siciliano, S. Garraffo, G. Sarcinelli, M. Taliercio Mensitieri.
As far as I know no scholar has ever questioned the attribution of these types to Tarentum.

Best :)
Nico

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2016, 08:41:56 am »
Very insightful Nico.

Offline Sam

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2016, 10:30:00 am »
Taras , your posts are always impressive.
Sam Mansourati

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #120 on: February 11, 2016, 03:26:22 am »
wow!   :o

alright, first of all let me say welcome back Nico, your input has been sorely missed. as for your future book, i am intrigued. if there is anything i can do to help please let me know.

your observations regarding this coin are interesting, and certainly appropriate from a scientist.  ;) . i would not have thought to reduce the wreath to a circle, but it seems logical in a cult sense.
so we can assume that the need for small change at Taras coincided with the founding of Herakleia, so why not a Herakles type? and can we then further assume the same cult associations for the bow & arrow / wreath types? (which i don't have... yet)
i'm not doubting, just trying to make sure i understand.
i also figured that the symbols were probably official signatures of some sort, especially since the series appears to have run for a few generations at least.

it seems to me from my own limited research that the left handled types are less common than the right handled. is that confirm-able?

thanks so much for the insights,  
~ Peter      8)




Taras

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2016, 05:35:39 pm »
wow!   :o

alright, first of all let me say welcome back Nico, your input has been sorely missed. as for your future book, i am intrigued. if there is anything i can do to help please let me know.

your observations regarding this coin are interesting, and certainly appropriate from a scientist.  ;) . i would not have thought to reduce the wreath to a circle, but it seems logical in a cult sense.
so we can assume that the need for small change at Taras coincided with the founding of Herakleia, so why not a Herakles type? and can we then further assume the same cult associations for the bow & arrow / wreath types? (which i don't have... yet)
i'm not doubting, just trying to make sure i understand.
i also figured that the symbols were probably official signatures of some sort, especially since the series appears to have run for a few generations at least.

it seems to me from my own limited research that the left handled types are less common than the right handled. is that confirm-able?

thanks so much for the insights,  
~ Peter      8)



Hi my friend!
Yes I think the cult association is the same fro the bow arrow/ wreath types, because the cult of Herakles in Tarentum was strictly connected with rites of passage, as I already said above.
The wreath as symbol of cyclical rebirth and passage was of near eastern origins, in cult association with liminal entities carrying souls to the afterlife, as we can see for example on this phoenician gem found at Tharros in Sardinia (very important for us even to understand the real meaning of the so-called "nike" crowning man-faced bulls on later campanian coinage).
This particular symbology of the wreath IMHO was still working in hellenistic Egypt, or we might not otherwise understand the meaning of child's mummies like this one stored at the Museo Egizio in Turin, as a child could not have been winner of any military battle, or any olympic games, so the wreath in this case must necessarily have an eschatological funerary meaning.

You are right, the left-handled types are less common.

Best :)
Nico

Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #122 on: May 29, 2016, 09:47:09 pm »
it's been 4 long months since i added the 50th coin to my Taras collection, but i did acquire a couple of new ones recently while my computer was down.

the first is this 3rd century BC obol, a variation on the kantharos/kantharos type with this one having a bucranium on the reverse. these are not rare but are definitely much scarcer than the usual type...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-129316

~ Peter


Offline Enodia

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #123 on: May 29, 2016, 10:08:29 pm »
the 2nd addition is a diobol of the Athena/Herakles & lion type, but this one with a twist. on this reverse the battle is over and Herakles is resting on the lion's dead carcass, leaning on his club and raising his cup.

this coin is very, very rare (probably the rarest coin in my collection), and Vlasto only knew of the one die combination... in fact this was his specimen!
unfortunately it looks as though someone tried cleaning it with a rasp and left it with some deep scratches. it really does look better in hand though, as long as you don't use too big a glass...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-129324

a rare plate coin with a long provenance... i'm happy!  8)

~ Peter

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Re: My Taras collection
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2016, 12:48:37 am »
Hi Enodia,

Congratulations on acquiring a very rare and interesting coin!!!

I didn't even know that type existed. I've never seen one for sale.

Meepzorp

 

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