FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Ancient Coin Forum => Topic started by: helvetica on March 13, 2021, 11:38:33 am
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Isegrim has been offline for the past couple of days. I just hope they haven't decided to shut it down for good. I would be happy to host it on the wildwinds server....
I know that they didn't realise how many people actually used it until someone mentioned it to them several years ago. It would be a disaster if it closed down.
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You might be able to find a copy at ARCHIVE.ORG (http://ARCHIVE.ORG)
Craig
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Dear Dane, Craig, and Board,
Didn't a fellow Forvm member here already recreate the site in the event that something like this would happen? Regardless, yes, I depend on Isegrim quite heavily even now!
For what it is worth, the online Berlin Coin Cabinet has been down for several days also. Could this situation possibly be related?
Best regards,
Mark Fox
Michigan
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Maybe this accident in France
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/fire-french-cloud-computing-firm-disrupts-websites-76386653
Regards
Klaus
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If I am remembering right we had this already some time ago and after some days it came back. It is weekend at the moment, let us wait until Monday :).
The support of such university applications is not always the same as with really important things (also because nobody is paying for that).
... You might be able to find a copy at ARCHIVE.ORG (http://ARCHIVE.ORG) ...
Archive.org can store internet pages, but not the whole content of underlying databases.
... the online Berlin Coin Cabinet has been down for several days also. ...
For me it worked as usual the last days and currently does :).
Regards
Altamura
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Now you see a message that they had a hardware defect and that during Monday it probably will run again :).
Regards
Altamura
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Katharina Martin from the Numismatic Collection of Düsseldorf just wrote to me that all the coins which are in the Isegrim are also available here:
http://gcam.hhu.de/
She writes that it is a simpler system than Isegrim.
The new system is still being developed.
On that start page, there is the information
For specific reasons, GCAM will finally use two different databases. The original ISEGRIM database will still be available via the search forms now listed under "Search simplified" and "Search complex".
Additionally, there will be a new search form under a menu item "Search (regular)". This will retrieve data from a database specifically compiled for GCAM on the basis of the original ISEGRIM data. The two databases differ in how they provide and process the data.
Each of the two databases has its strengths and weaknesses: Most importantly, the original ISEGRIM database provides no images, while the new GCAM database will be restricted to one language version only (English). We will provide more information about the search options once the new database works properly.
I was so worried that Isegrim had been killed, I even offered to host it on the wildwinds server, in the same way as a couple of other former website owners (notably the old Corinthian staters website and the old Illyrian cow-and-calf type coins website) offered me their data before shutting down their websites, to save the data from being lost).
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It seems to slowly wake up again :) , "only" the anonymous login doesn't work :-\ .
Regards
Altamura
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I received another email from Katharina, she wrote (translated into English:)
GCAM is also not working at the moment, I didn't realise it when I sent my previous email.
The reason is that the old Isegrim is now only bundled into the new framework.
....
Something like this shouldn't happen, but they do, when someone switches something off, or switches something over, or.....
The team in Düsseldorf are working on it, so we need to be patient.
A friend of mine in Germany sent me this link.
http://isegrim.mybluemix.net/?
It looks wierd but it is still experimental. It is NOT a backup copy, BUT it doesn't work either because of an upstream error. Upstream errors can be caused by several programming errors, e.g. the database cannot be reached because it's not there, the path to the database is incorrect, the query limit has been surpassed, etc.
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isegrim.mybluemix.net is my web site. I made it to help people who struggled with the original search. It doesn't actually have the data, it just makes a query on the original and makes the results look pretty.
While I was working on isegrim.mybluemix.net I saved about 99% of ISEGRIM into JSON files. If the owners of the data permit it I can make that data available.
-Ed
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This simplified version appears to be working now. I just did a search at random for Domitian and Perga.
http://gcam.hhu.de/index.php?page_id=20
The Search: "Complex" (= the original Isegrim) is still not working.
Ed m'dear - I didn't realise that was your website. The link was sent to me via Skype by a friend in Germany.
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I like the layout of the mybluemix search. I just tried it for the first time and got an "Upstream error 500," so I assume that is due to issues with Isegrim. I will check back in a day or so, but this looks like a great way to search the database. Isegrim itself is difficult for me and I need to practice more with it.
Thanks for all these efforts on these projects, they are so helpful.
Virgil
isegrim.mybluemix.net is my web site. I made it to help people who struggled with the original search. It doesn't actually have the data, it just makes a query on the original and makes the results look pretty.
While I was working on isegrim.mybluemix.net I saved about 99% of ISEGRIM into JSON files. If the owners of the data permit it I can make that data available.
-Ed
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The old Isegrim appears to have been permanently killed.
There is now a notice on the gcam page when you click "Complex".
Update 17.3.2021: Leider ist es nicht möglich die alte Version des ISEGRIM Datenbankzugangs weiter bereitzustellen. 20 Jahre sind eine lange Zeit für ein Softwareprojekt an dem niemand mehr arbeitet.
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"Unfortunately it is no longer possible to make the old version of the ISEGRIM database accessible. 20 years is a long time for a software project on which nobody works."
I am going to write to them again.
The gcam page is - to be honest - pretty useless. Whereas in Isegrim you used to be able to enter terms such as
VT: .*portrait man left.* RT: .*woman sitting.* RS: .*EPI STRA." using wild cards and still get lots of entries, partial legends don't work on the gcam page. If you don't have the full legend or the city of minting etc, it shows no results.
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The old Isegrim appears to have been permanently killed.
RIP
I helped to develop Isegrim as student in the late 70ies in Düsseldorf
First program code was written in COBOL, input via punchcards
Regards
Klaus
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... The old Isegrim appears to have been permanently killed. ...
That's extremely bad news :(.
... The gcam page is - to be honest - pretty useless. ...
I completely agree.
Additionally you cannot specify whether the search terms should be applied to the obverse or the reverse and you cannot exclude things. This is by far not "nearly all functions" :(.
Do you know what is the reason for the shutdown? "No longer possible" gives much room for interpretation :).
Regards
Altamura
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I helped to develop Isegrim as student in the late 70ies in Düsseldorf
First program code was written in COBOL, input via punchcards
Wow! I would love to hear more about that. The system was very impressive for its time, and even for today. The people who made that system were real visionaries. Today people talk about "search ontologies" and things but that system was the first I saw that really did it.
I have the book Typenkatalog der antiken Münzen Kleinasiens by Otfried von Vacano from 1986. The only numismatic reference I own printed in a computer font! What is the relationship between that book and ISEGRIM?
The gcam page is - to be honest - pretty useless. Whereas in Isegrim you used to be able to enter terms such as
VT: .*portrait man left.* RT: .*woman sitting.* RS: .*EPI STRA." using wild cards and still get lots of entries, partial legends don't work on the gcam page. If you don't have the full legend or the city of minting etc, it shows no results.
Exactly. I am a software developer. I used developer tools to look at what happens after clicking SEARCH. The front end is sending whatever the user enters, via a POST. The response comes back with any * asterisks removed. It is unclear which component is removing them. The magic of the original system was that it allowed users to search wildcards using "regular expressions" ("regex" search). It is unclear if the new developers were
- over-zealous at sanitizing inputs (easily fixed)
- using a database without regexp features (a bit harder to fix)
- chose to not offer regexp search
I would be happy to look over their code if it is available.
The code for my front-end, isegrim.mybluemix.net, is stored as a private repo on Github. I am happy to give out access to their team, or to you. (It isn't much code, just a some web forms that sent HTML to the original ISEGRIM.)
I like the layout of the mybluemix search.
Thanks! I worked hard to make it easier to use ISEGRIM. I wish I could have made contact with the operators.
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Thank you for all your contributions, Ed; if the original developers allow it, it would be a great help to have access to what you could salvage!
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It appears that Isegrim as we know it will / can definitely NOT be restored.
Katharina Martin explained the problem to me today and I can understand the problem about the old coding, because I had exactly the same problems when wildwinds was uploaded to the first modern server in its history (it had previously been stored on Daves old server at a host centre).
Unfortunately things are not quite so simple. The ISEGriM data are stored on an external server, and one and a half weeks ago the server failed. Basically the data is still there (which is why at least the "Simple" search on GCAM is working), but the complex, old Isegrim data also needed an "old" system in order to work and show results.
The database was built using a very old PHP mysql module and here lies the problem - the Simplified GCAM was set up in 2014 in order that the database would still work with a newer version of PHP.
"not updated" therefore doesn't mean that no new data can be entered, but that the technical basis was totally outdated.
Johannes Wienand (also receiving this email as "cc") is the person who has been caring for Isegrim over the past few years and should be thanked for his work, as without him, ISEGriM would truly have disappeared years ago. He is in contact with the programmer. Perhaps you would like to contact him ?
Ed - if you would like Johannes' email address, could you send me an email (my address is in my profile). Maybe you could give us hope ??
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I doubt, wether Johannes Wienand can help with technical matters.
He is an ancient historian, focussing on numismatics, now holding a chair at the University of Braunschweig
https://coinsweekly.com/whoswho/wienand-johannes/
I know him a little bit through conversations when he worked in Düsseldorf and surely will help "on the short way"
Besides this forum you may contact me also by email
regards
Klaus
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... I doubt, wether Johannes Wienand can help with technical matters. ...
But he "is in contact with the programmer", and it seems that there is a software migration problem. Let's hope that someone can be found to fix that.
Regards
Altamura
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If money's a problem, we could probably scare up at least some funds to help make this happen. Although Isegrim also tracks pre-Roman coins, I'm surprised RPC isn't leading this.
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The project was initially funded by the "Gerda Henkel Stiftung"
https://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/
I suppose that money will be no problem
Regards
Klaus
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Thank you, Klaus; let's hope someone will rescue the project.
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Or at least rescue the database.
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I have received the raw data and converted it to an xls file, which had over 51,000 lines and which had a lot of extra columns, e.g. with legends repeated, probably for internal use.
I have asked Düsseldorf whether I would be allowed to make it into one of my xls lists similar to my RIC lists. I would split the data onto three pages - AE after ca 27 BC - AE before 27 BC - AV/AR/EL.
In addition I would change (Anglicise) emperor/empresses names from the way they were in Isegrim, i.e. JULIA instead of IULIA, MARCUS AURELIUS instead of MARC AUREL, PESCENNIUS NIGER instead of NIGER, PHILIP instead of PHILIPP, ELAGABALUS instead of ELAGABAL etc.
Also correct words such as PRICECROWN to PRIZE URN.
It'll be a hell of a job and I doubt whether I would be able to add all the new variations which are e.g. listed here on forum,
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49390.0
because the details of many of the entries are missing. (e.g. some have "new Septimius Severus type from Nicaea" and show the photo, but without legends, etc. and I do not have the time to try to make out the details, legends, fieldmarks etc. just from photos.
I'll keep you posted about whether I get permission to do it. Until then we need to use GCAM and hope that the bugs (no Greek letters are showing, for example) can be ironed out.
If I DO get permission, would Isegrim fans prefer normal Latinized letters in the legends instead of the Isegrim format ? e.g. I would use F for P', Q for T', X for C' but I would keep the S e.g. SEPTIM because it would take too much time for me to check which coins have CEPTIM, for example - don't forget there are 51,000+ lines of data to modify.
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... I have received the raw data and converted it to an xls file, ...
These are great news +++.
... In addition I would change (Anglicise) emperor/empresses names from the way they were in Isegrim ...
I don't mind how things are written, as long as they are written always the same way. This has been one of the strengths of Isegrim and should be preserved.
... It'll be a hell of a job and I doubt whether I would be able to add all the new variations which are e.g. listed here on forum ...
This is an extra, I already would be happy if we would get the content of the original Isegrim back again.
Thanks a lot for your effort!!!
Regards
Altamura
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Ah, Dane to the rescue, assuming that Dusseldorf signs on, and lets this go forward as hoped! Your retooling-plan sounds great, and as for refinements, they’ll happen eventually, or not, perhaps with smart streamlining-assistance from Ed. A good headnote on search-terms should do it!
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Progress report: 8 April.
As mentioned further above, I have split the files into three sheets/pages of the xls file and am currently working on the "AE AD" sheet. There are a some errors in Isegrim which I have noticed in the past (e.g. mixing up the obverse and reverse, peculiar names for objects e.g. "WEIRS 2", so these are being corrected or clarified as I go through the list.
Some of the original VT types are terribly obscure, e.g.
PERSONS 4 / WOMAN STANDING HR(1) / DEMETER(1) <?> / ALTAR / THEREABOVE / COLUMN / WITH / FIGURE STANDING HL(2) / APOLLO(2) / THEREUNDER / ANIMAL <L> / BULL / THEREBEHIND / MAN STANDING HL / EMPEROR(3) / MAN STANDING HR(4) / EMPEROR(4) / MAN STANDING HL(5) / PERSEUS(5)
which some of you may recognise, but people who have never used Isegrim but will be using the xls list will be confused. This, for example has been changed (partly corrected) to
in Column M: PERSONS 4 WOMAN MAN MAN MAN
In Column N: WOMAN DEMETER(1) STANDING HR BEFORE ALTAR SURMOUNTED BY COLUMN OF APOLLO (2) STANDING HL, BULL BELOW, UPPER BODIES OF FIGURES 2 (EMPEROR HL AND EMPRESS HR) BEHIND THE ALTAR, MAN PERSEUS (3) STANDING HL TO RIGHT
There are also a lot of German terms which were not translated for the original English version of Isegrim, and I am checking some works for better descriptions than those in Isegrim (e.g. HEAD MAN HR, with no other details as to who it is). Not all works cited have better descriptions, but some do, which are being added.
The AE AD sheet has just over 35,600 lines and I am currently on line 11,250.
As soon as this sheet is done, and added some info/conventions I'll put the entire xls online (with Sheets 2 and 3 not yet reworked) and with time I will add some of the coins in the Isegrim additions thread mentioned above as well as otherwise unpublished types in GRPC Lydia.
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My hat off to Dane !
That sounds to be almost a Sisyphean task to cope with.
Clueless
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We're all grateful for all your hard work!
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ISEGRIM, and most of the other coin data bases, give results as lists of example coins. The ANS database is technically capable of doing more, with SPARQL queries, but that functionality is not exposed to the world.
I'd like to encourage developers and data scientists to create tools that can be combined with other tools. Let me give an example. I often see people uploading a poor quality coin and asking where it is from. Using the ISEGRIM data, I did a query for coins with obverse of an emperor facing right, reverse temple. Then I summarized the results, and fed them into Excel.
This pie represents emperor/temple coin types of Asia Minor:
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The entries for sheet 1 (Roman times AE), with 35,601 lines is basically done, and I am about to change the peculiar way that Isegrim required certain Greek letters to be entered.
So
T' will be Q (for Theta)
C' will be X
P' will be F
but I am unsure how to convert P'' (for Psi) AND S' (for digamma).
Any suggestions ?
Also, I will not be changing the S (as in SEBASTOY, for example) to C because many early provincials use Sigma and I don't have the time to check them, so the S will remain as S.
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The entries for sheet 1 (Roman times AE), with 35,601 lines is basically done, and I am about to change the peculiar way that Isegrim required certain Greek letters to be entered.
So
T' will be Q (for Theta)
C' will be X
P' will be F
but I am unsure how to convert P'' (for Psi) AND S' (for digamma).
Any suggestions ?
My recommendation is to have one column for the original, encoded ISEGRIM and one column for true Unicode uppercase Greek.
When I did isegrim.mybluemix.com, I found that it was really nice having true Greek characters that I could paste into web sites and documents. Yet it was also nice having the Latin characters for searching.
Here are the multi-character sequences used
"T'": "\u03B8", // Used in AR PA GERMANIKOPOLIS ESTIA T'EWN ET SDI
"S'": "\u03DA", // Stigma, used in AYT KAIS NER TRAIANOS SEB GERM DAR TO S'I
"P''": "\u03A8", // Psi, used in KELENDERITWN YP''
"P'": "\u03A6", // Phi, Used in SMYRNAIWN OMONOIA P'ILADELP'EWN EP PWLLIANOY
"C'": "\u03A7", // Chi; Used in ANTIOC'EWN MENEKLHS
"Y'": "\u03A5", // Upsilon, // Used in IEROS AGWN PY'TIA NIKAIEWN
"X'": "\u03A7", // Chi; Used in ERY X'ARMHS
I am happy to supply a Javascript program to convert ISEGRIM's encoding to actual Greek.
The original ISEGRIM encoding also had German words in angle brackets in the inscriptions. Some I was able to figure out, some I could not. isegrim.mybluemix.com translated those for English speakers like this:
"<PA>": "<PA>", // Example "ZEP'YRIWTWN <PA>"
"<KOR>": "<KOR>", // Example "TIMOLWBOY <KOR>"
"<COR>": "<COR>", // Example "AYT K POY LIK GALLIHNOS <COR>"
"<LATEIN>": "<Latin>", // Used in "APA MANTIT'EOS MANTIT'EOY / C FAN PONT PR <LATEIN>"
"<RETRO>": "<Retrograde>", // Used in "APA MANTIT'EOS MANTIT'EOY / C FAN PONT PR <LATEIN>"
"<MONOGRAMM,": "<Monogram,", // Used in "P'AYSTOY <MONOGRAMM,T>"
"<VERW>": "<VERW>", // Used in M IOYLION P'ILIPPOS KA <VERW>
"<NICHT ANGEGEBEN>": "<Not Specified>", // Example "KYZIKHNWN NEOKORWN <NICHT ANGEGEBEN>"
"<RETOUCHIERUNG>": "<Retouched>", // Example "ANAZ ENDOX MHT B G ET T'MS <RETOUCHIERUNG>"" Re-engraved?
"<BEARBEITET ZU ": "<Edited to ", // Example "EPI MENANDROY .. SYNAEITWN <BEARBEITET ZU SYDHTWN>""
"<UNLESBAR>": "<Unreadable>", // Example "? <UNLESBAR>"
"<UNLESERLICH>": "<Illegible>", // Example ".. <UNLESERLICH>"
One problem non-Germans have is that we can't look up abbreviations in dictionaries. If you know what PA, or VERW means, let me know!
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<VERW> is very likely "verwaist" = very worn or illegible. It also means "orphaned" but in the coin sense it usually means it is so pitted or worn that it is illegible
The <PA> for the Zephyrion coin (the only instance of <PA>) is simply an interpretation of the fieldmark which is actually a Pi and a PA monogram, although the P (reversed) of the monogram is very small at the top left of the A. Some of the references cited just give a Pi and an A.
I would simply not have the time to add 56,600+ legends in Greek, Ed. As you can see, just the basic sheet 1 has taken me 18 days. I think I will change S' to S but add a note in column X that it is a digamma.
As for P'' (Psi), the only way I can think of is to change it to [PS] in square brackets and add the information to the Info sheet.
I haven't added done the bibliography yet, I am still tweaking Sheet 1.
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I would simply not have the time to add 56,600+ legends in Greek, Ed.
Maybe there is some way we could pool our efforts?
I could probably write a program to generate converted columns according to your rules.
It is also possible, I suspect, to write an Excel formula to do a conversion. The idea would be to leave the original data, but create a column that is just 56k identical formulas under-the-covers.
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Great to know of such progress! If you wish to discard Isegrim's quirky transcriptions, I'm sure you would like to avoid other quirky transcriptions instead; nothing quirky however about W for obsolete S' (digamma), since basically that's how it sounded. If we're talking about the numeral usage of S', you could follow "W" with "(numeral 6)." An inelegant but functional solution for Psi is to key it "Ps."
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The digamma in Isegrim is, amongst others, the value mark for 6 Assaria, as well as e.g. the consular year 6 on a Caesarea, Cappadocia Drachm of Trajan. The digamma does resemble an S, so using a W (=Upper case Omega) would be confusing.
Also, not everyone who will be using the list will know that the number 6 was often represented by a digamma. so using a 6 would be equally confusing.
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Point taken. For such specialized use maybe what is required is a readily gettable non-Greek symbol of some sort, say @ or $ or #. Of course Q and J have their own problems.
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Excel has functions. For example, it can replace P' with ϕ using
=SUBSTITUTE(B3, "P'", "ϕ")
(assume B3 is the column/cell with a Greek inscription)
You can put the formula into a single cell, and copy it to an entire column. Poof! Instantly the whole column has no P'.
To replace all of the ISEGRIM multi-character letters, we must combine SUBSTITUTE() by nesting:
=SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(B3, "P''", "Ψ"), "P'", "ϕ"), "T'", "θ"), "S'", "Ϛ"), "Y'", "Υ"), "X'", "Χ")
We can also replace other letters for pretty-printing. For example, we can nest in a replacement for D to Δ
=SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(SUBSTITUTE(=SUBSTITUTE(B3, "D", "Δ"), "P''", "Ψ"), "P'", "ϕ"), "T'", "θ"), "S'", "Ϛ"), "Y'", "Υ"), "X'", "Χ")
Perhaps you don't want Greek letters. You can use the same scheme but replace the Greek letters with your favorite Latin substitutes such as Q.
Perhaps you don't want formulas in your spreadsheet. There is a way around this. The idea is to customize the spreadsheet as little as possible, so that if the ISEGRIM people release a new dump we can easily bring it in.
To create the user-friendly version, load the vanilla version. Create a new pair of columns, one for obverse inscription, one for reverse, using these formulas. Then, copy the new columns and "Paste->Special (Values)" the new columns over the original columns. Then delete the formula columns.
Use the power of Excel to save your time and eyesight.
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Point taken. For such specialized use maybe what is required is a readily gettable non-Greek symbol of some sort, say @ or $ or #.
That it a brilliant idea !
I am just adding the coins from the second page of the Isegrim Additions page, mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.
One thing I have also noticed - there must be at least two versions of RecGen. I have the printed book (George Olms co. reprint from 1976), plus the Paris versions with hundreds of hand-written additions and corrections, so I will check a few of those to see whether they are in Isegrim.
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Yes, there are 2 editions, the earlier edition ( the Paris copy with handwritten notes ) and was it a 1921 or 1926 printed edition. Links to this latter edition are found on the forum, too.
Dane, you have been able to very quickly complete things that far, outstanding !
There's a silver lining to all this, too. When the excel-sheet(s) have been posted, people will of course download copies, this will ensure that the data will not be lost if something happens to Dane's page.
Clueless
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>
this will ensure that the data will not be lost if something happens to Dane's page.
I hope you touched something made of wood when you wrote that, to appease the gods !
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Well, I sacrificed a nice beer to the gods, ie put it behind my belt ;)
I did check out RecGen, the latter edition is printed 1925, the Paris copy with the handwritten notes is printed 1904.
Clueless
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Sheet 1 is more or less finished. All the vars from the above-mentioned pages here on Forum have been added.
All the vars from a couple of cities (small ones such as Daldis, Tomaris) from my GRPC Lydia have been added.
I wanted to run through some pages of wildwinds looking for unpublished types, but I need to catch up on a LOT of other stuff first (over 120 emails waiting for replies, 30+ coins sent by Skype..)
Please note that Sheet 2 (pre-Roman AE) and Sheet 3 (AV, AR) are still quite "raw" and need to be sorted out and cleaned up.
If anyone wants to try out the list so far, it can be found here:
https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls
Please don't send me additions to the list, add them to the appropriate Isegrim extensions page here on Forum.
For those of you who have never used Excel or the spreadsheet program (free) from LibreOffice, here are a few tips:
Click on the "down" arrow next to the appropriate column name at the top of the list.
Use "Contains" and enter what you are looking for. You can use something similar to wildcards, e.g. EP*S*IANOY*ARX will shorten the column to everything containing that (in that order) so you would see entries with EPI STR, EP STRA.. etc.
Do the same with the other columns.
Because some of the deities on the reverse are unsure, some Isegrim entries are given as TYCHE <DEMETER> or TYCHE OR DEMETER or TYCHE (1) , so use the "Contains" option for the name of the deity as well.
As I say, it isn't polished yet, so do what you can with it.
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Marvellous, Dane; Isegrim rides again!
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+++
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I used the Excel file during the last days and it works really good +++. Thanks a lot! :)
Regards
Altamura
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Having used the excel file, it works great. In fact I find it a lot easier to use compared to ol´ Isegrim and you get a better view of the results you are looking for.
Great job, Dane !
Clueless
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Sheet 1 is more or less finished. All the vars from the above-mentioned pages here on Forum have been added.
All the vars from a couple of cities (small ones such as Daldis, Tomaris) from my GRPC Lydia have been added.
I wanted to run through some pages of wildwinds looking for unpublished types, but I need to catch up on a LOT of other stuff first (over 120 emails waiting for replies, 30+ coins sent by Skype..)
Please note that Sheet 2 (pre-Roman AE) and Sheet 3 (AV, AR) are still quite "raw" and need to be sorted out and cleaned up.
If anyone wants to try out the list so far, it can be found here:
https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls
Please don't send me additions to the list, add them to the appropriate Isegrim extensions page here on Forum.
For those of you who have never used Excel or the spreadsheet program (free) from LibreOffice, here are a few tips:
Click on the "down" arrow next to the appropriate column name at the top of the list.
Use "Contains" and enter what you are looking for. You can use something similar to wildcards, e.g. EP*S*IANOY*ARX will shorten the column to everything containing that (in that order) so you would see entries with EPI STR, EP STRA.. etc.
Do the same with the other columns.
Because some of the deities on the reverse are unsure, some Isegrim entries are given as TYCHE <DEMETER> or TYCHE OR DEMETER or TYCHE (1) , so use the "Contains" option for the name of the deity as well.
As I say, it isn't polished yet, so do what you can with it.
Great work Dane, thank you very much!
Perikles
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Now that's just spectacular. Thank you, Dane.
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Yet another reason why Dane is one of the great heroes of the online ancient coin world! Great work!
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I rarely used the old Isegrim mostly because for a long time I did not know how. I finally figured it out about a year ago (or maybe 3, hard to keep track). I do think it was an excellent resource. I haven't read all of this thread, but I gather that thanks to Dane we can looking forward to trying a new easier version. I look forward to it. Thanks Dane!
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Thank you so much, Dane. I used the Excel sheets for the first time, today, after trying to work with gcam for several weeks. And this is just so much faster, so much better. While I got something out of gcam after a while, today's experience was just great. Thank you, once more.
Thilo
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Forum member Tjaart has very kindly checked through wildwinds for coins described as unpublished so I am going through the loooong lists he has sent me and adding them to the Isegrim xls.
In addition, as I mentioned to Thilo in an email, where the figure on the reverse is just a single person, let's say Asklepios, there is not much point in retaining the (1) after his name and after his attributes. The (1) is just wasting space, so when I come across them for single figures, I am removing the (1), as the attributes obviously cannot belong to anyone else except the person depicted. There are thousands of the damn things. e.g. ATHENA(1).....SPEAR(1) / SHIELD(1) / HELMET(1) will become ATHENA.....SPEAR / SHIELD / HELMET. Much cleaner.
I will try to upload the latest version(s) once a week. Check the READ ME sheet for the date of that version.
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I think this NumisWiki page needs an update?
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Isegrim
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So far 1,770 ADDITIONAL coins have been added to Sheet 1 which now stands at 37,357 lines.
Tjaart has been scanning wildwinds and sent me the last lists of vars on wildwinds which need to be added to the Isegrim list.
When those are done I can tidy up Sheet 2.
You will notice that sheet 1 is a lot cleaner with a lot of the (1) attributes removed when they cannot belong to anyone else,
e.g.
WOMAN STANDING HL (1)............ ATHENA (1) ............. SPEAR (1) / HELMET (1) / SHIELD (1)
is now shown as
WOMAN STANDING HL............ ATHENA ............. SPEAR / HELMET / SHIELD
I noticed that an awful lot of obverse legends are missing from the original Isegrim files, so I will take some time out to try and find them.
There was also a hidden hyperlink on two lines which was almost impossible to remove, no matter what I tried. I finally managed to kill the little devil.
UPDATE 29. MAY: Over 2,100 coins added to sheet 1.
Download link still: https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls
UPDATE 13, JUNE:
- Sheet 2 is now also sorted, corrected and descriptions clarified.
- More than 2,500 coins have been added to the original lines
- The Bibliography list has been added on two sheets: Books & Articles // Auctions. Many of the article titles, journal volume numbers, dates, page numbers etc which were missing from Isegrim, have been found and added. Some auctions are still missing information though because the original details are so vague or missing .
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Just an update on my Isegrim xls list. It was a landmark day today, adding coins of Juliopolis from Devecioglu's thesis previously not present, to the Isegrim list.
These brought the ADDITIONS to the Isegrim xls list to 5,500
and the total number of Asia Minor coins in the Isegrim xls list to 62,169
I already "did" the Julia Domna coins of Caesarea, Cappadocia from the Ganschow book. Next big job is checking through the Sept. Severus then Caracalla's, Geta's coins etc. in that book.
Links:
Available on https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls
Text file: How to use this Isegrim file https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Using_Isegrim_xls.txt
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Thanks Dane!
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Isegrim xls database news, 13th August 2023:
Here are some current numbers:
"AE AD" sheet, including Roman Provincials
Current number of entries: 41,247 = 5,693 coins added to the original Isegrim list for this type
"AE BC" sheet, AE coins from before Roman times
Current number of entries: 10, 807 = 1,495 coins added to the original Isegrim list for this type
Total number of coins of AE AD, AE BC, AR civic issues, AR Roman Provincials, AV/EL and a separate sheet of added Ephesos coins which I need to sort out for the AR civic sheet = 66,757 coins = 10,083 coins added in total
List still available here.
https://www.wildwinds.com/Isegrim/Isegrim_allfiles.xls
Saving the file is taking longer and longer. I was wondering whether I should split it into two separate xls files - one for the AE AD / AE BC and Roman Provincials AR, and one for the AR and AV/EL coins...
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I hope they let you do it! I actually have not used Isegrim more than a few times but I would if it was easier to use.
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I hadn't realized until recently you were adding new coins to the database but I've downloaded the XLS a while I ago & been using it. I look up almost relevant coin of mine, or any coin I'm thinking about buying/bidding on (both for further references and provenance research), and have actually found further provenances & publications for many of my coins in ISEGRIM.
The biggest thing I prefer about the XLS is that I can jump directly to a record number. If I use GCAM or the other site (isegrim.dasr.de/isegrim_neu/test2014.php) I have to search out the record each time. I'm still usually looking everything up on both now (there are occasionally some minor differences, e.g., (1), (2), (3), vs. (1-3) which can matter for identifying specific specimens w/ certainty).
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I think I use the xls file almost weekly, it is mostly the first source I am consulting. Thanks a lot for all this work.
... Saving the file is taking longer and longer. I was wondering whether I should split it into two separate xls files ...
I have no problems with that at all. Perhaps your computer needs some upgrade? I would prefer to have it all in one file, this is easier to handle.
But take care: For Excel there is a maximal number of lines you can have ;).
Regards
Altamura
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I don't think the problem with the longer open/save times is due to my PC (despite it being a trusty Windows 7). I tried it on my "new" (s/h refurbished) Windows 10 notebook and it took the same time to open it. I think it's the sheer size of the xls. The AD AE (Roman provincials) alone has over 41,000 lines and, now that I have added a lot of AR "tiddlers", the AR sheet is nearly 11,900 lines.
I know about the limitations of the number of lines in Excel.
I think I will split the AD AE sheet into two sheets - one for Greek legends and one for Latin legends. I think most coins will have at least one legible letter which is usually used only in Latin legends, e.g. R, S, D, F, G, L, as opposed to their Greek equivalents. So if you have a coin and can see an :Greek_Phi:, :Greek_Omega:, :Greek_Theta_2:, :Greek_Pi: etc, you'd look in the AE AD Greek list.
I am currently adding some unpublished vars from Naumann's auction 91 (July 2020), then I can see about splitting the AE AD sheet.
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I don't think the problem with the longer open/save times is due to my PC (despite it being a trusty Windows 7). I tried it on my "new" (s/h refurbished) Windows 10 notebook and it took the same time to open it.
It took me 8 seconds to download and 12 seconds to open the file. My fibre optic connection is fast, but my computer is an average 6 year old Windows 10 system. IMHO from the user side there is no reason to split the file, but if your upload time ist too long, a split isn't a problem.
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The save time on my PC is 14 seconds, i.e. to save the open file back onto the V drive on my NAS (diskstation). Uploading it to the server only takes 3-4 seconds.
My old Excel can handle 65,536 rows per sheet. The horrible newer versions of Excel - not tweakable and with their idiotic "ribbons" and "pretty colours"for Newbies and which require up to 6 clicks for something when the older versions require only 2 - can handle over 100,000 lines per sheet, which is about the only thing in their favour. ;D
Splitting the AE into Greek and Latin makes little difference in the size of the file, by the look of it.
Online version (unsplit): 21,859 kb
My version on NAS (split): 21,865 kb
I might unsplit it again...
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Either way, 21 MB files are tiny these days. I would just leave it one file. Unless things have changed, all a spreadsheet is is a bunch of ASCII text (I think images are links, not 100% sure, I never put an image in a spreadsheet). ASCII worked fine on 300 baud dialup. I think spreadsheets are the only software that have remained open source all these years since Lotus123 with dot commands, so all of them use the same basic code. I use Open Office and it can handle the same number of rows as Excel (65, 536). I have never come close to testing those limits. Thanks for all the work you do on this and Wildwinds, Dane.
Virgil
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Less than two seconds to open and less than five to save :) (using LibreOffice instead of Excel).
In my eyes this is a matter of the capability of the processor and perhaps the RAM available. In other words: how mighty your machine is.
Regards
Altamura
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when I try to log in, I get a message that I must buy Open Office?? I know I'm cheap but what?
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I have never paid for Open Office, not sure what that is about. I am way too cheap to buy Microsoft Office, ;D
Virgil
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I think it's just Microsoft being Microsoft. Hadn't used open office for quite some time. No need to pay.
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I am currently setting up a new PC (with Windows 10, special build with 5 hard disks, two of them SSD) to replace my current Windows 7 and asked the techy to install Office 2021 (YUK :()) and now it's too late to install my trusty old Excel, which was soooo much easier to use than this new untweakable thing with its damn silly "ribbons" and not even "Exit" in the menu..
Anyway, I will continue to add coins to the Isegrim file (and my RIC lists) using the old Excel format (so .xls instead of .xlsx) if I can.
(I have been setting up the new PC on the living room table for 6 days so far, linked via wifi to my current PC to make some work a bit easier, such as finding licence numbers. Just a couple more progs. to be added, then nearly 1 Terabyte of data and backups to be copied over from my current external G drive.... Thank Gawd all the wildwinds files and 15,000 pdf files are on my NAS ;D)