Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Almost Complete  (Read 3375 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Almost Complete
« on: January 10, 2015, 02:00:36 pm »
I have recently photographed and re photographed a large part of my collection of Byzantine tetartera, I will continue to add however most will be different examples of the same coins.

I did my best to make this a useful tool for anyone looking up tetartera for Id. The search for each one is listed as Tetarteron, ruler and by Sear number. Eg Sear 1955, I thought Sear to be still the most useful way to communicate with other collectors regarding a particular coin.

The details listed for each coin are taken from the DOC, I thought their description as being most useful and thorough. I have included the weight and size for each coin and in the description I have added the min to max weights and sizes in the doc collection.

Each coin is also listed with CLBC number for each, I thought the authors created a great catalog by using line drawings for each coin, and it is a great tool for new and old collectors alike.

I have also separated the Metropolitan issues from the regional issues as suggested in DOC, I do not think the silver content can be dismissed especially being so close to the silver content to the trachea of the time.  That makes this collection three separate denominations ( Metro Tetarteron, AE Tetarteron and Half Tetarteron.)

Alexius is complete (Not pictured is Constantinople lead issue, not photographing well.)

John II is complete except for rare variation of S-1953 with labarum

Manuel is complete

Andronicus, missing one the rare S-1988

Isaac II Missing one S-2006 (I have one that I am uncertain of it being attributed correctly.)

Alexius III (Missing 2016, a sear unlisted half tet, and I have only one coin showing 2017/2018 since the only variation between the two coins is the legend.)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633

Many Thanks to Joe for giving us a searchable gallery, I did not mention where I got the coins but a couple of my favorites came from Forum and I look forward to getting new treasures from here.

I hope you find this useful and If you see any mistakes PLEASE feel free to contact me so I can correct it, and if you feel a photo is really bad let me know, I will try to replace it with another one.

Simon


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10703
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 05:01:49 pm »
Hi Simon ,
Congratulation.. +++

Nice collection..
 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Obryzum

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2015, 08:47:46 pm »
A very useful resource for a neglected series!

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2015, 07:24:21 pm »
I got lucky but I was able to add an attributable example of S-2016 Alexius III half Tetarteron this week. This is the first example I have seen outside the books. Its not pretty.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-117402


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633

Another possible example was available for some time but it lacked the Manus Dei and just did not have the correct weight, it might have easily been S-2015. This example, battered and all does have the Manus Dei and fits the size and the die diameter is small enough 14mm to be sure it is correct.

I have one more to find( Doc IV AE6) to complete Alexius III part of the collection.  Its a good day
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline B*Numis

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • B-numis
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2015, 10:58:25 am »
Nice !  +++
Besançon Numismatique
www.bnumis.com

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2016, 10:18:16 am »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Sam

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1934
  • Ego vici mundum
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2016, 10:39:45 am »
 +++
Sam Mansourati

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12153
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2016, 11:30:49 am »
Simon, When posting links to a gallery page you must use the link in the description, NOT the url above in the browser. If you do not see a URL in the description, click the i in a little blue circle and then scroll down. The gallery is a database and URL in the browser address bar is only temporary. 
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2016, 11:45:32 am »
I understand Joe. Will do in future.

Thanks for the correction.

Best,

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12153
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2016, 12:35:46 pm »
Thanks. And, oh by the way, nice coin!
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 06:28:39 pm »
I have not found the last coin I needed but today. I did learn that the coin I have been looking for ( SBCV-1988 ) was proposed to be taken off of Andronicus I   list and to be listed under Andronicus I Gidon #7 of the Trebizond empire, nearly 50 years latter than first thought. The catalog I received in todays mail was Simon Bendall's 2015 publication "The Coinage of the Empire of Trebizond." published by Spink.

If I accept his proposal and I am thinking he is correct , then technically my collection is complete with all known issues of tetartera of Alexius I , John II , Manuel, Andronicus I , Isaac II and Alexius III. Its never how I thought I would complete the collection.

I do wish I knew how Michael Hendy attributed the coin to Andronicus I, is was not based on finds because the coin is extremely scarce. That was partly the reason why Mr. Bendall moved it to a Trebizond issue, My consideration and I am thinking I agree with him is also based on style, it does not fit into 12th century coinage and when I saw the picture listed in Trebizond catalog it reinforced my thinking. It would seem in the small paragraph written by Simon Bendall he was convinced by the Fleur-de-lis on St Georges shield, a symbol that became popular in the 13th century.

So I have completed a collection I started out 15 plus years ago and knowing how I completed it , I can honestly say the feeling is bittersweet.

Simon

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12153
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 08:06:53 pm »
Wow. Are they all in your gallery?
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 08:40:30 pm »
Every type is Joe, but not every example I have . I do have some other tetartera outside of the rules of the collection John III and Theodore II not in the gallery yet.

I plane to re photograph every example ( I have started that process) and break the gallery down to separate gallery's divided by  Ruler, I will also remove some of the lesser quality  examples. 

As for collecting more, only if they are better than what I have, I have also started an Anonymous Follis collection , they will eventually get a gallery as well.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Sam

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1934
  • Ego vici mundum
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 08:50:41 pm »
Congratulations , dear friend Simon .
From the bottom of my heart  +++ ,  your collection will be a candle with your name will light forever and guide the new collector +++
Sam Mansourati

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12153
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 10:01:39 pm »
Every type is Joe, but not every example I have . I do have some other tetartera outside of the rules of the collection John III and Theodore II not in the gallery yet.

I plane to re photograph every example ( I have started that process) and break the gallery down to separate gallery's divided by  Ruler, I will also remove some of the lesser quality  examples. 

As for collecting more, only if they are better than what I have, I have also started an Anonymous Follis collection , they will eventually get a gallery as well.

Great, please keep us posted as you make improvements.  I am going to go browse your gallery again now.  :)
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Molinari

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
  • My defeat, if understood, should be my glory
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2017, 08:22:51 pm »
Congratulations, even if it is bittersweet.

Offline Vladislav D

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2017, 09:48:33 pm »
Congratulations Simon !!!  +++
Regards ,
Vlad .

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2021, 09:39:40 pm »
For years I looked for an example. I had only seen one and that was from a fellow collector on Forum Ancient Coins, I helped him attribute it.
After that I never saw another Until……..

A collection of coins from Simon Bendall came to market, I bid on this coin and lost and very much regretted it. Well in this case opportunity struck twice and the coin came back to market, I acquired it and received it today.

Andronicus I SBCV-1988 DOC 7
2.57gm
20mm
From the collection of Simon Bendall.

I had considered my collection complete without this coin but after making the purchase I did some more homework regarding the coin.

Now the original attribution by Michael Hendy was this was a coin made during the siege of Thessalonica in the month of August 1185 AD, the normal issue from this mint was a coin depicting the Virgin (Type A, SBCV-1987)  and this rare coin was considered type B ( SBCV-1988). The tie in is two of these coins were found at the Athens and none in Corinth excavations. One of the 2 coins found was overstruck over type A. I have not seen this overstruck coin and it was not pictured but it was from work “The Athenian Agora” written by Margaret  Thompson in the 1954.  That gave them the placement of what was first.

Jump ahead and the original owner of this coin, Simon Bendall, he wrote another book in 2015, “The coinage of the Empire of Trebizond” . In that book he believes the coin should have attributed to Andronicus Gidon ( 1222-1235 ) a grandson of Andronicus I. Mr. Bendall’s argument on it is that the Lys had first  appeared  on Byzantine coinage after  1204 AD   and two other of Andronicus Gidons coins had St George where Andronicus I did not have him on any and Andronicus did not use full family name Comnenus on his coinage
I thought this very convincing until I remembered a sold an Andronicus I Type A tetartera SBCV- 1987 with a full family name, I sold that example here on Forum  and it was very notable because it included the full legend. AN∆PONIKOC ∆ECΠOTHC.

The second part is not very strong argument, St George was a waring Saint and commonly used by Andronicus predecessor Manual Comnenus and the Lys had been used in early Christian art to depict the Holy Trinity as well as other cultures for different reasons.

So here is the final irony, the coin came with Simon Bendall notes on a piece of small cut up paper, he had never got around to reattributing the coin and he left it at Andronicus I DOC VII

This was my only missing coin from my collection of 12th century tetartera Alexius I to Alexius IIISo with this it is now complete and I could not think of a better coin to complete it with, nice example, excellent Provenance and a touch of mystery to boot.

 
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12153
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2021, 07:57:50 pm »
Nice!
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline glebe

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1342
    • Glebe Coins
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2021, 02:45:54 am »
It seems it was Pagona Papadopolou who first suggested that SBCV 1988 could be an issue of Andronicus I Gidon (Bendall, Num. Circ. 2007 p.260).

The fact that S.1988 is known overstruck on S.1987 and was found at Athens throws obvious doubt on that attribution.

Incidentally, Bendall lists 8 specimens of this type in various collections (including BMC 19) and it seems he originally had two examples, one of which is now Simon's. In the 2007 article he showed his other example, but didn't give any weight (although in any case it was trimmed, as most examples seem to be).

Ross G.

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2021, 07:47:50 am »
Thank you Joe, It is a very nice piece and I am pleased.



It seems it was Pagona Papadopolou who first suggested that SBCV 1988 could be an issue of Andronicus I Gidon (Bendall, Num. Circ. 2007 p.260).

Ross G.

I did not know that, he does not cite her in the catalog, I am interested in reading more about how she got there.  One thing he mentions in the catalog  to reattribute the coin is that it is extremely rare and that points to Andronicus Gidon , however, if the coin was only made for a month or so as siege coinage of Andronicus I it would also be extremely rare as well. So that was not a very good argument.

One thing I did encounter in my reading  was proof of clipping of coins before Latin rule, during the reign of Alexius III, I had always thought it was during Latin Rule.  The coin you mentioned this before was my Constantinople issue  of Alexius III half tetarteron SBCV-2018, perhaps you are correct but that would make it an issue late in his reign. My 2 other coins , the full tetarteron from Constantinople show no signs of clipping. Hendy did think SBCV-2014  was from early in his reign because he did not use the Comnenus name in the legend. Alexius III did that when things were getting bad at the end of his reign.

Here is the other thread regarding issue of SBCV-1988 from a forum member.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=33530.0

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2021, 04:38:49 pm »
When searching the web your site came up Ross. It is excellent ! This coin is discussed about 2/3rds down.


https://glebecoins.net/paleos/Articles/Coins_for_Andronicus_I_Gidon/coins_for_andronicus_i_gidon.html

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline glebe

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1342
    • Glebe Coins
Re: Almost Complete
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2021, 04:34:31 am »
Hi Simon - yes, Papadopolou's arguments are summarised there, including the interesting possibility that an example of S.1988 came originally from The Crimea.

Does this mean something? Well, maybe yes, or maybe not, but it's still worth keeping in mind.

Ross G.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity