Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet Challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins!!!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Twins of Marcus Aurelius 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Twins of Marcus Aurelius  (Read 1236 times)
jackfromslough
Guest
« on: August 17, 2014, 12:07:26 pm »

Hello

I need correct information about twins of Faustina and Marcus Aurelius whose born in 149. All sources provide contradictory informations. Harold Mattingly in his BMCRE on page lxvii, footnote no.4 he doubts for Strack's theory about two twin-boys, arguing that one of them must be Lucilla. That made sense until I red Wikipedia where I found contradictory information.

Quote

   1. Annia Aurelia Galeria Faustina (147–after 165)[264]
   2. Gemellus Lucillae (died around 150), twin brother of Lucilla[263][264]
   3. Annia Aurelia Galeria Lucilla (148/50–182), twin sister of Gemellus, married her father's co-ruler Lucius Verus[264]
   4. Titus Aelius Antoninus (born after 150, died before 7 March 161)[264]
   5. Titus Aelius Aurelius (born after 150, died before 7 March 161)[264]
   6. Hadrianus (152–157)[264]
   7. Domitia Faustina (born after 150, died before 7 March 161)[264]
   8 Annia Aurelia Fadilla (159–after 211)[264]
   9. Annia Cornificia Faustina Minor (160–after 211)[264]
 10. Titus Aurelius Fulvus Antoninus (161–165), twin brother of Commodus[264]
 11. Lucius Aurelius Commodus Antoninus (Commodus) (161–192), twin brother of Titus Aurelius Fulvus Antoninus, later emperor[263][264]
 12. Marcus Annius Verus Caesar (162–169)[264]
 13. Vibia Aurelia Sabina (170–died before 217)[264]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius

It seems that genealogical table confirm that, but on the same Wikipedia...

Quote
In 149, Faustina gave birth again, to twin sons. Contemporary coinage commemorates the event, with crossed cornucopiae beneath portrait busts of the two small boys, and the legend temporum felicitas, "the happiness of the times". They did not survive long. Before the end of the year, another family coin was issued: it shows only a tiny girl, Domitia Faustina, and one boy baby. Then another: the girl alone. The infants were buried in the Mausoleum of Hadrian, where their epitaphs survive. They were called Titus Aurelius Antoninus and Tiberius Aelius Aurelius.[112]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius


First quotation refers mainly to Danish historian Jona Lendering, but even that is incorrect. Compare with this:
http://www.livius.org/di-dn/divi_fratres/marcus.html
The second one, refers to book of Anthony R. Birley "Marcus Aurelius". Friend of mine has an old edition of this book dated 1966. But refers of second quotation indicates to page 206-207 which doesn't exist in old edition of this book. Has anyone of You the latest edition of this book? Can You confirm that? Or maybe you've got better information about twins of 149?

Regards
- Jack
Logged
curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11061



« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 04:25:05 pm »

Jack,

The subject is difficult, because no ancient author tells us how many children Marcus and Faustina had, when they were born, what their names were, and how long they lived. There are a few names and dates in these written sources, and some more in surviving inscriptions such as the Ostian Fasti and epitaphs of deceased children from Hadrian's Tomb. Coin types are important for showing when children were born, what sex they were, and how many surviving children there were at particular times, but unfortunately many of these types occur on the undated coinage of Faustina II, whose dates have to be figured out from detailed numismatic study and comparison with the dated type sequences on the contemporaneous coinages of Antoninus Pius and Marcus as Caesar. I did a lot of work on this problem some decades ago and made a lot of progress, but never reached a final solution so never published my results.

My opinion on the crossed cornucopias type you ask about: it commemorated the birth of a second child to Marcus and Faustina, a boy, during Antoninus' 12th tribunician year, which I think lasted from c. 25 Feb. 149 to 24 Feb. 150. There is no need to assume that the crossed cornucopias type must refer to the birth of twins; the child on the right is instead the first child of Marcus and Faustina, the girl born on 30 Nov. 147, who is accordingly sometimes shown with longer hair in the coin type; the baby on the left is the second child, a boy, born according to the coin type in 149-50. Because this baby was a boy and potential successor, his birth was commemorated on Antoninus' coinage, which had in contrast taken no notice of the birth of his older sister two years earlier.

I can also say that both of these first two children apparently died before the end of Marcus' third tribunician year (24 Feb. 150 if Marcus' tribunician years were coordinated with Antoninus'), because of an interesting discovery I made: sometime in the course of that year Marcus abstained from numbering his tribunician power, so that when Antoninus became TR P XIII and then TR P XIIII, Marcus continued striking as just TR P III ! In the course of Antoninus' TR P XIIII, however, Marcus relented and agreed to resume his tribunician power, accordingly becoming TR P IIII when Antoninus became TR P XV c. 25 Feb. 152. Very soon thereafter, however (hence the rarity of TR P IIII coins of Marcus), the decision was made to restore Marcus' original TR P numeration, so his tribunician number advanced from IIII to VI from one day to the next! That is why coins of Marcus dated TR P V do not exist.

I think only one explanation is possible for this remarkable deviation in numbering. Marcus had received the TR P for producing his first child with Faustina in 147. His refusal to advance his TR P two years later (probably he renounced that power altogether and no longer considered it current) can only mean that his and Faustina’s first two children had both died! Marcus was always extremely scrupulous about adopting honorary titles, so it makes perfect sense that when all of his children had died, he refused to hold the TR P any longer. When Lucilla was eventually born on 7 March 152, Marcus resumed holding the tribunician power, first as just TR P III and then IIII, but soon restoring his old numeration with TR P VI. So we at last understand why it was Lucilla who eventually married Lucius Verus: she was Marcus Aurelius’ oldest surviving daughter!
Logged

Curtis Clay
otlichnik
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4956



« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 06:49:18 am »

Fascinating.  Too bad you have never published it all.

Shawn
Logged

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)
jackfromslough
Guest
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 02:41:19 pm »

Thank you very much Mr. Clay. That's really fascinating.

Can you tell me where did you found those suppose date of birth for Lucilla? If that's truth. twin-boys of 149 could be makes sense. Anthony R. Birley refers to the inscriptions found in Mausoleum of August. That's strange a bit because I read that there wasn't any space for Trajan that's why he was buried in the base of his column. And the last person who was buried over there was Nerva. That's very complicated, but your thesis move forward this case to resolve it. Smiley Birley says that she born on 7 of March 149 (confirmed by inscription).

Another thing is date of renew of Tribunican Power by Marcus Aurelius. You said something completely different than Sydenham in RIC and Mattingly in BMCRE. I don't want to say that they're uncontested authority, everyone makes a mistakes, but most of us rely on these two books. The later writers like Sear, Reece even Grant and others, they just copy them in main subjects. In these two publications that concern explicates that Mark renew his TR P twice in one year, actually in one month December. In RIC the accurate date is 10 of December 146 and in BMCRE is 10 of December 147. A year of difference. You said that he renewed his TR P on 25 of February every year on the same day what Antoninus? If he get first TR P immediately after birth of his child that's means that something here is incorrect, or I understood wrong.

Regards
- Jack
Logged
curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11061



« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 08:28:42 pm »

Jack,

I think the inscription tells us only that Lucilla was born on 7 March, not in which year!

I say 152, because I think Marcus was childless from 149/50 until 152, causing him to renounce his tribunician power.

Apparently shortly before Antoninus became TR P XV, however, Marcus and Faustina had a child, so he resumed his TR P and became TR P IIII when Antoninus became TR P XV.

That child was very probably Lucilla, who really can't have been born much later if she was to marry Lucius Verus in c. 164, when she would have her 12th birthday if born in 152.

As to Antoninus' tribunician day, we know it was 10 Dec. by the end of his reign in 161, and that day has been assumed to go back to at least 147, when Marcus was voted that same power.

However, I observed in my Oxford thesis of 1972 and in a paper at the International Num. Congress of 1973 that virtually all of the bronze medallions of 160-196 were produced at the end of each year, but with their titles dated ahead to the upcoming 1 Jan., obviously so that they could be used as New Year's presents. I deduced that from the imperial titles on the medallions: whenever there was some change of title in the course of the tribunician year, the medallions always dated to the first issue of the year. For example, in 161 Antoninus died on 7 March. All known bronze medallions of that year are for him as TR P XXIIII; none at all exist for Marcus TR P XV and Lucius TR P as Augusti.

In the course of his TR P XIIII, however, Antoninus changed to a longer obv. legend on his coins, and in the course of TR P XV he reverted to the shorter legend. If the tribunician day was already 10 Dec. at that time, then the medallions of those years would have to fall in the first issue of each year. Wrong: all known medallions of those years fall in the second issue, with long obv. legend in TR P XIIII and with short obv. legend in TR P XV. That means that the tribunician day cannot have been 10 December, and the only option is the anniversary of that power's first conferment on Antoninus. It seems out of the question that in those two years, contrary to all others, there were no New Year's issues of medallions, but rather two large issues of medallions in the second half of each year.

Now, Hadrian adopted Antoninus Pius on 25 Feb. 138, and one would assume that his tribunician power, recorded on all of his coins as Caesar, goes back to that day. However: Lucilla was born on 7 March, apparently in 152, and her birth caused Marcus to resume his tribunician power. But Marcus seems to have resumed his TR P slightly before the end of Antoninus' 14th tribunician year. We must assume, then, that Antoninus' tribunician day fell somewhat later than Lucilla's birthday on 7 March. Probably on the unknown day when the tribunician assembly met to confirm the tribunician power that the Senate had voted to Antoninus on 25 February.

So when dating Antoninus' tribunician day in my post above, I should strictly have written not "c. 25 Feb.", but "unknown date after 7 March"!

If Antoninus' TR P XV ended not in March 152 as I suggest, but on 10 Dec. 151 as traditionally assumed, then the birth that caused Marcus to resume his tribunician power would have fallen in Nov. or early Dec. 151, so could not be Lucilla whose birthday was 7 March. It would then have been difficult for Marcus and Faustina to still produce Lucilla in time for her to be able to marry L. Verus in c. 164. Obviously it is more likely that Antoninus' tribunician day was in c. March, and that the baby whose birth restarted Marcus and Faustina's family was indeed Lucilla. This consideration strengthens the proof from the medallions that Antoninus' tribunician day in c. 151-2 was not 10 Dec. but the anniversary of the original conferral of that power in c. March 138.

A little complicated, but I hope you get the gist!

Moderator: I would recommend moving this thread to Roman Coins.
Logged

Curtis Clay
curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11061



« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 07:19:17 pm »

Actually, I think we can say with fair certainty that Lucilla was born on 7 March 151 not 152.

In the first place, Lucilla can hardly have been born on 7 March 152, since the Ostian Fasti record that in that same year Faustina also gave birth to a son, who however apparently immediately died; see text and discussion in Strack, pp. 117-8. But after 7 March 152 only nine months and three weeks remained before the end of 152, a very short time indeed in which to produce another child! Of course we should not exclude a premature birth, which might fit with the immediate death of the baby, but still it seems unlikely. Unfortunately the exact date of the baby's birth and death is lost from the fragmentary Fasti, but these events are recorded more towards the beginning than the end of the 15 lines of text devoted to the year 152.

Secondly, dating Lucilla's birth to 7 March 151 allows a rather attractive interpretation of the LAETITIA COS IIII type on Antoninus' aurei, showing Ceres embracing her daughter Proserpina (image below), which was apparently produced at exactly this time. The type belongs to the beginning of Antoninus' 14th tribunician year, which I think began on 25 Feb. 151, because though most of the surviving specimens are dated TR P XIIII, one has the numeral of the preceding year, TR P XIII. The type shows Ceres welcoming her daughter back from the underworld, a fitting analogy, it would seem, for Faustina II giving birth to another daughter, after the tragic deaths of her first daughter and son at very young ages!

The course of events, then, might have been:

On 25 Feb. 151 Antoninus began his 14th tribunician year; Marcus, still being childless, had renounced that power so continued calling himself TR P III. On 7 March 151 Faustina gave birth to Lucilla, an event which was commemorated by the LAETITIA type, mostly struck from TR P XIIII obv. dies, but also, erroneously, from one TR P XIII die which had remained in use in the new tribunician year.

Marcus, having produced a new daughter, resumed his tribunician power, but since his and Antoninus' tribunician day had already passed, he felt no need to change his numeration from the TR P III that he had been maintaining since 25 Feb. 149. His next tribunician day, on 25 Feb. 152, raised the question again, however: after briefly striking coins as TR P IIII, he consented to restore his original numeration, so immediately passed to TR P VI.

This reconstruction eliminates the need to date Antoninus and Marcus' tribunician day to after 7 March (see above); rather that day must have preceded 7 March, so we can return to the obvious date of 25 February, when Hadrian had adopted Antoninus. It also gives Lucilla an additional year to achieve maturity, before marrying L. Verus in c. 164.


* APiusAureusXIIIIProserpina.jpg (623.53 KB, 2000x1036 - viewed 3 times.)
Logged

Curtis Clay
jackfromslough
Guest
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2014, 12:21:34 pm »

   Mr. Clay, even you can't imagine how much exciting is that for me. Seriously! I tried to resolve it but I couldn't. You're like a flame of candle in the dark room - I can see more now. Smiley
   I see that we both don't afraid undermine the indisputable authorities. Good, that's means that we move slowly forward, closer to the truth. Pioneers cut a trail, next generations should go ahead and expand it.
   To tell you the truth, your previous post made me more confuse than I was on the beginning. But your last post is much easier for understand for me. And maks more sense, especially with 5th tribunican power of Marcus Aurelius. Before you said that:

Quote
(...), however, Marcus and Faustina had a child, so he resumed his TR P and became TR P IIII when Antoninus became TR P XV.

If you would say "...and become TR P VI" not TR P IIII that wouldn't be so confusing.

   I've got couple questions. What year in your opinion should be changing date of Antoninus TR P from 25 February to 10 December? RIC says 146, BMCRE 147. There must be change, because last TR P XXIIII of Antoninus would be struck as a... posthumous. And that is impossible. I'm still confused about your explanation about legends and tribunican powers of Antoninus madalions and coins.
   Another thing. Who is that boy what you talking about? Any speculations about his name? If Lucilla born in 151 that means that shouldn't be Gemellus Lucinae then. So who? Anyway Gemellus Lucinae, is he exist at all? If yes, that maybe reverse with two cornucopias really refers to these twins? To be honest I like your theory and even I can make it stronger. If you will check reverse RIC I, Tyb.42, RIC II Vesp.798, RIC III Ant. 113 and RIC III Ant.185 you will see one regularity, All of them (except last one) has a caduceus between crossed cornucopias. All of them (except last one) refers to brothers: Tiberius & Germanicus, Titus & Domitian and Marcus Aurelius & Lucius Verus. On the last reverse on aureus, there is no caduceus. Why? Because that could be refers to brother and sister so caduceus as a symbol of agreement and negotiation wasn't desirable.
   Why some of sources oscillates between 148 and 150 as a year of Lucilla birth? Is a year 150 has a good reasoned?

Regards
- Jack
Logged
curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11061



« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2014, 05:48:20 pm »

Jack,

All we used to know about Lucilla's birth is that it happened on 7 March, and that she married L. Verus c. 164, so must have been 12-13 or older by then. The exact year of birth was a guess, which explains why different scholars have chosen different years. We simply had no firm evidence.

My discovery of Marcus' renouncement of his tribunician power adds an essential new fact. Lucilla cannot have been born before 25 Feb. 151, because otherwise Marcus would have reinstated his TR P, and would have become TR P IIII on that date with Antoninus TR P XIIII. He did not beome TR P IIII until one year later, meaning that Lucilla can only have been born on either 7 March 151 or 7 March 152, as I argued above.

Do you have hesitations about accepting my discovery and explanation of Marcus' renouncement and then resumption of his TR P? How else are you going to explain that Marcus called himself TR P III from 25 Feb. 149 until 24 Feb. 152, then briefly became TR P IIII, before reverting to his original numbering and changing to TR P VI overnight?

You ask whether Lucilla might have been born on 7 March 150. I respond that that date is absolutely excluded by the fact that Marcus did not resume his TR P until either 151 or 152!

Lucilla had no twin brother, so you should eliminate that phantom from consideration. He was created by assuming that the crossed cornucopia type of 149/50 celebrated the birth of twins, one being Lucilla and the other her twin brother. Wrong: as I explained above, that type probably merely commemorated the birth of a second child, a boy, to Marcus and Faustina, and the girl facing him is not his twin Lucilla, but rather his older sister who had been born on 30 Nov. 147. But both of these children died before 25 Feb. 150, causing Marcus to renounce his tribunician power.

As to the name of the boy who was born and died in 152, I have no idea, just as I have no suggestions for the names of the first girl and boy who had died in 149/50. My first endeavor is to discover when Marcus and Faustina had babies, what their sex was, and how long they apparently lived. Once that timeline is established, then I will consider what names are attested, and how the names might match up with the attested births. The only names we know with certainty are Lucilla, born 7 March 151 or 152; Commodus and his twin brother Fulvus Antoninus, born 31 Aug. 161; and Annius Verus, born a little later in Marcus' reign.

How is it that you came to be interested in this question? Are you a graduate student in ancient history studying in Great Britain? Probably not, for in that case you would have access to the second edition of Birley's monograph!

My own interest was sparked by reading Fittschen's book of 1982 on the portrait types of Faustina II. I was totally unconvinced by Fittschen's argument that Faustina changed her hairdo whenever she gave birth to a child. So I decided to look closely at the numismatic evidence for when Faustina bore children on the one hand and when her coiffure changed on the other.
Logged

Curtis Clay
curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11061



« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 10:37:58 am »

An obvious point occurs to me, which fixes Lucilla's birth without question to 7 March 151 not 152.

The Ostian Fasti are fragmentary, but the second half of all of the fifteen lines devoted to the year 152 survives. So we know at least something about all of the events recounted for that year; it is quite impossible that an entirely new event could have been recorded in one of the missing half lines, which contained only about four words each! But in the surviving text there are no words that could be reporting the successful birth of Lucilla on 7 March. Therefore that birth did not take place in 152, and the only remaining option is 7 March 151.
Logged

Curtis Clay
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Twins of Marcus Aurelius « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.987 seconds with 39 queries.
All coins are guaranteed for eternity
zoom.asp