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Author Topic: Can BD penetrate plastic?  (Read 26495 times)

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Offline Meepzorp

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Can BD penetrate plastic?
« on: April 01, 2014, 09:34:18 pm »
Hi folks,

I have a question about bronze disease (BD). Can it penetrate plastic?

I store my coins in mylar plastic flips. I store the flips (containing coins) in blue plastic storage containers, approximately 50-75 coins per box. I've been collecting ancient coins since 1998, and I never had any problems. I periodically check my collection. Everything was fine until I recently checked them. Apparently, several of my coins have developed BD in the past few months. I am shocked at how rapidly it spread. But I noticed something strange. The affected coins are consecutive in my storage boxes. There could be 20-50 consecutive coins that are fine, and then 2 or 3 consecutive coins will have BD. Then another 20-50 consecutive coins will be fine, and then 2 or 3 consecutive coins will have BD. The affected coins never physically touched each other, and they are separated by several layers of mylar plastic.

Can BD pass through several layers of mylar plastic and contaminate nearby coins? Does BD release gases that could be traveling around in my storage boxes? I don't understand how it could be affecting nearby coins without actually touching them. Or is this just a coincidence?

The location of my coins has not changed. There has been no change in humidity. I don't understand why this is happening now.

If possible, maybe I can post some photos to confirm that it is BD. But it certainly looks like it to me.

If it is BD, what can I do?

Also, where can I get those silica/desiccant things? I am not currently using them. How many do I need to use? Do I put them inside the blue plastic storage boxes, or near them (outside)?

Thanks in advance to everyone who offers advice.

Meepzorp

Offline n.igma

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 09:46:01 pm »
Bronze disease is not contagious.  It is due to the mobilisation to the surface of the coin of chlorides in the coin under conditions of high humidity. Only bronze coins buried under certain soil conditions will contain sufficient chlorides for a problem to develop.  So BD is coin chemistry specific and is not contagious. More likely what you are seeing is  the consequence of the ageing PVC breaking down. A few photos of the problem flips and coins would help in the correct diagnosis.
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 10:01:52 pm »
Hi n,

I don't use PVC flips. I use mylar (archival) flips. I specified that in my previous post. Whenever I receive a coin in a PVC flip, I immediately remove it and put it in a mylar flip.

I know the difference between PVC and mylar. PVC is soft and flexible, and it smells like vinyl. Mylar is hard and brittle, and it has no odor.

What I am seeing is not PVC damage. I know what that looks like. It looks like the patina is melting.

I am seeing specs of light green "freckles" on the surfaces of my coins.

If possible, I'll try to take some photos.

Meepzorp

Offline JBF

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2014, 11:04:49 pm »
do a search on desiccant, see who has addressed it before.
I think I remember Molinari mentioning it, but I am not absolutely sure.
You might switch out the box and the flips, why a certain box wouldn't
be good, or why some flips wouldn't be good, I don't know.

good luck.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 11:20:24 pm »
Let's bust a myth..... this may be news to some but not all mylar is archival!

In fact some "archival" mylar film is coated with a thin film of PVC derivatives ... this from a site dedicated to preservation...
http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/abbey/an/an13/an13-5/an13-507.html ..... Recently a form of Mylar called M-30 has been offered to museums on the retail market. This product is coated on both sides with a thin layer of polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC, an example of which is Saran). This coating was added to serve the food packaging industry which needed barrier properties and the ability to run the film on high speed packaging machines. The PVDC did both jobs well......... None of these varieties can be considered archival, because of additives in or on the film. ...... Some day you or your museum or archives will be glad you chose the correct Mylar.

Begs the question as to the real composition and integrity of your "archival" mylar flips. As I say photos would help in diagnosis.

Also what sort of "plastic" is the storage box in which the problem coins reside?
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 12:14:41 am »
From my understanding of my college chemistry courses, BD is chemically self-sustaining in the presence of water, oxygen and chloride ions. PVC provides the chlorides, the air provides the water and oxygen. Chloride ions and copper make cuprous chloride which reacts with water and oxygen to form cupric chloride / cupric hydroxide (blue-green BD) and hydrochloric acid; the latter reacts with copper to make more cuprous chloride, and so on. The chemistry is such that it would keep going if the BD is internal to the coin and/or if the coin is in an enclosed container, but, as many collectors have experienced, BD, or rather the hydrochloric acid vapour generated by the BD process, can also spread to kick-off the process in nearby coins, and given that the mylar flips won't be totally sealed, I suspect that's what's happened. I'd consider whether the blue plastic storage boxes may be the original source of the chlorides, perhaps containing some PVC, enough anyway to keep the process rattling on once started.

I wouldn't necessarily shoot the mylar flips - perhaps they are a source of chlorides in surface coatings but, if archival, they may be innocent bystanders whose only significant role may be to provide a closed container to enable the reaction to continue. But if it happened to me I would probably change out all the adjacent flips out given that you don't know what the flips now contain in terms of BD residue, and I would probably follow appropriate advice on BD cures (a subject I don't wish to comment on, ref. elsewhere on Forum). I'd consider finding an alternate inert container than the blue boxes. I'm assuming the blue plastic boxes are slide containers; you may have no idea what they are made of (might be full of PVC or related compounds). Many collectors/dealers use cardboard containers.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2014, 07:35:52 am »
Here is the link about buying real desiccant:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=88977.0

If your coins are in a safe I highly recommend it.  If I were you I'd ditch the flips and get some nice trays.  Even the mylar flips trap moisture, which is why I originally switched to trays.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2014, 09:31:17 am »
I agree with Molinari. Anything you can do to let the coins "breathe" and to limit moisture in the storage environment is a good thing. If you are keen on using boxes, I would use the cardboard variety rather than plastic. Trays would be even better, but can be a difficult transformation if you are used to flips (I know as I am in the midst of switching to trays).

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 06:39:26 pm »
Hi folks,

I went through my ancient coin collection. I have approximately 20-30 coins that may or may not be candidates for bronze disease. Using my niece's cell phone camera, I took 11 photos.

Please let me know what you all think.

Again, thank you in advance for your opinions and advice.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2014, 06:42:23 pm »
Hi folks,

Here are photos #6-10.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 06:43:45 pm »
Hi folks,

Here is a photo of the blue plastic storage boxes I use.

Meepzorp

Offline Mat

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 06:47:43 pm »
From the photos, it looks like bronze disease. :-[
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Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 06:52:51 pm »
Yup, those need to be treated asap.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 07:09:30 pm »
Working off of memory, you need to:

1. Get a brass brush at a hardware store and clean out the powdery green residue.

2. Soak in a sodium sesquicarbonate solution.  I ordered my sodium sesquicarbonate from an online chemical supply store.

3.  Mix the SSC with water, I forget the ratio, and let the coins soak.  You might have to boil the solution, I can't remember.

4. The diseased parts on my coins then turned dark red and the BD was gone.  I've only ever experienced BD on roman asses and larger types.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Nick

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 04:30:23 am »
Hi folks,

I purchased Pelican desiccant. I started using it today.

I am in the very early stages of trying to fix the BD problem on my coins. I decided to experiment on one of my Augustus coins. It is the one in photos #4 and #5 above. I chose that one because it appeared to have the worst, most advanced, and most rapidly spreading BD. I don't have the sodium sesquicarbonate yet. As per the instructions in the Numiswiki file (accessed via this section of this board, where there is a post by owner Joe where you click on the term "bronze disease"), using a sharp needle, I scraped away at the green stuff on the surface of the coin. This exposed shiny bronze. But it also left numerous nasty scratches in the surface of the coin, which is exactly what I was expecting to happen.

Was this supposed to happen? Will the scratches go away (or be covered up) once the entire process is complete? Is my coin ruined?

Meepzorp

Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2014, 08:19:40 am »
There is a solution available that will quickly tone the spots of shiny metal.  Someone else must know its name.

But before doing any of that I would make sure the BD is definitely gone.  Perhaps leave the coins out for a month or so, or monitor them weekly, etc.

Offline Lee S

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2014, 09:20:12 am »
Hi Meepzorp,

 Sorry about your BD!!  :(

    I would recommend using a needle ground down to a more chisel like point to avoid sharp scratches ( and a gentle touch, you just want to remove the loose powder, not to gouge the coin!! ) , or even better, invest in a propelling brush with brass and glass fiber refills, these are available from electronics suppliers, and are used for cleaning printed circuit boards, they will not harm the patina of the coin if used with care. Here is a picture so you know what I am talking about.

  There is plenty of information on treating BD in the uncleaned coins section...

 Good Luck!!

Lee.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2014, 07:39:06 pm »
Hi folks,

On page 4 of this section of the board, there is a thread titled "BD or Corrosion", by Vladisav D. In reply #8, owner Joe has the phrase "bronze disease" written in such a way that, if you hover over it, it turns red. If you click on it, it directs you to a Numiswiki page about BD.

Can someone please put that clickable phrase here in this thread? I don't know how to do that, and I would like to continue to reference that Numiswiki page as I continue this thread.

Thank you.

Meepzorp

Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2014, 07:42:57 pm »
Click on where you just wrote bronze disease and it should work.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 07:53:53 pm »
Hi Meepzorp,

 Sorry about your BD!!  :(

    I would recommend using a needle ground down to a more chisel like point to avoid sharp scratches ( and a gentle touch, you just want to remove the loose powder, not to gouge the coin!! )

Lee.

Hi Lee,

How do you NOT gouge the coin under these circumstances? The top layers of the green stuff is powdery, and it just flakes right off. But the bottom layers of the green stuff is not powdery at all. It is hard as a rock. And it is encrusted into the surface of the coin. It is actually part of the surface of the coin. There is no way to remove all of the green stuff without scraping the hell out of it. And that leaves behind shiny bronze and numerous nasty scratches.

Or am I doing something wrong?

Oh, and by the way, I seriously doubt that device you recommended (and show a photo of) would work here. The bottom layers of the green stuff are hard as a rock. I was scraping the hell out of it for a good 10 minutes, leaving the coin surfaces scratched and gouged. And I still only removed about 30-50% of the green stuff.

I also have another question. When I treat the affected coins with sodium sesquicarbonate, does all of the green stuff have to be off the coin surfaces? Can I treat them with the green stuff still on the coins? The reason that I am asking this is that I don't want to damage any more coins. I can't figure out how to remove all of the green stuff (especially the hard encrusted green stuff) without damaging the coins.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 07:57:02 pm »
Click on where you just wrote bronze disease and it should work.

Hi Nick,

It does work!!!

Thank you. :)

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2014, 07:59:20 pm »
Hi Lee and folks,

The Numiswiki page recommends using a "sharp needle". So, that is what I did.

Is that advice erroneous?

Meepzorp

Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2014, 08:04:12 pm »
From what I understand, and I might be wrong, anything hard is patina or malachite, anything powdery is BD.  If it isn't coming off by brushing then I don't think it is BD, but maybe malachite encrustations that won't come off and don't need to.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2014, 08:23:34 pm »
From what I understand, and I might be wrong, anything hard is patina or malachite, anything powdery is BD.  If it isn't coming off by brushing then I don't think it is BD, but maybe malachite encrustations that won't come off and don't need to.

Hi Nick and folks,

Do malachite encrustations grow, spread, and flake off? Because it did on that coin. It wasn't like that when I purchased it. The green stuff definitely spread. And it also flaked off in the mylar flip. Even before I removed the coin from the flip, there were pieces of green stuff in the flip. When I removed the coin from the flip, powdery green stuff was left behind it the flip. Would malachite encrustations do that?

Meepzorp

Offline Molinari

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Re: Can BD penetrate plastic?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2014, 08:34:00 pm »
What I mean is that you might have both malachite and BD, if that's possible.  My guess is the green malachite will turn to red cuprite after the SSC soak, but I could be wrong as I've only dealt with BD a few times several years ago.

 

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