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Author Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina  (Read 138667 times)

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2005, 01:39:42 pm »
How long have you been collecting?  How long has monneron been selling?  Did you buy them all on eBay?  If you bought from reputable dealers I wouldn't worry.  I don't think any reputable dealers would have purchased part of the monneron "hoard."  So the only way they would have them is if they were perchased from a collector as part of a collection.  I don't think that is likely to have happened so quickly.  Also, monneron's total production can only be a small fraction of the genuine coins on the market, so they won't ever be a huge problem.  If many of them start circulating then dealers will have to look closer at these types.  I know I will look very closely at any coin with the monneron charicteristics.   
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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2005, 02:10:55 pm »
I will repeat the first thing I said in my original post, I am not for or against monneron or his coins, I am simply interested (as we all are) in ascertaining the true provenance of these coins based on fact not opinion.

In some cases I offered alternative theories regarding these coins merely to increase debate as those already offered seemed to me to be open to challenge. I hope in my original posts that I made these opinionated comments clear to all. There is nothing wrong with playing a bit of the Devils advocate in order to increase debate and everything wrong with trying to stifle it.

May I suggest a spectoscropy. Some of you learned chaps at US universities must be able in the name of science to twist the right persons arm to get this done ??

I haven't heard from the mediator yet about the frankly disgusting comments regarding myself so I think that this may well be a very short membership for me. I'm not exactly sure about mediators who remove comments from forums anyway, bit Stalinist for me, that is unless they are patently untrue, derogatory or offensive to anyone in any way!!!! These normal mediation activities seem not to apply here....??

His comments say far more about himself than me in any case, but then that is only an ill informed auxilliary's opinion that won't count for much anyway!!

Providing I don't have my membership revoked for expressing my views I'll let you know about the poser....Thank you.


Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2005, 02:19:56 pm »
Quote
The coins do not come from a single hoard source, this is without doubt.

Reply from Monneron to one of my queries:

Quote
The coins come from an old friend who found them in France in a ground pot approximately 35 years ago. It certified that the patina was natural. There are many coins of Arles and Lyon. It is normal because these cities are in France.


I have the unsettling feeling that he doesn't know he's selling fakes.

I think we need some more tools to help us ID these guys.

Style: Anymore tips? Our forger seems to enjoy doing dot eyebrows, something, as Joe as already said, was only done at Trier, probably by a single Celator.

Patina: Obvious, except when removed, as hoover has done,  making out lives that much harder. How do we tell genuine coins that have the dark brown patina from the Monneron fakes? Is it possible it's a side effect from the Jax?

Flan: Apparantly they're too uniform. Can anybody expand on that? Weight? Diameter? Thickness?

Evan

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2005, 02:49:37 pm »
The reason you haven't heard from a moderator is that the person who said "disgusting comments" regarding you IS the moderator. 

First, I have never seen anyone described as a "gentleman" on these boards or anywhere recently.  Since it is rarely used, the term must be seen as both complimentary and legitimizing.  It bothered me greatly that such a term was used for a fake seller.  So I suggested peddler or seller.  Those are in my opinion neutral terms, not insults. 

I also noted that con men and thieves are often particularly good at making themselves likeable, seen as gentleman perhaps.  That was not directed at you specifically.  It was a just a relevant factual observation.  You can also look back at some of the more famous historical forgers of coins and artworks.  Charming personality was quite often one of the tools to sell their wares. Monneron has also been described as a nice guy.  I think it is perfectly legitimate for me to point that out to our collector members that charming and nice does not always mean honest. 

I speculated that you had cleaned the coins and then resold them to profit by taking coins questioned as fakes and removing the patina that identified them as questionable.  You gave your reasons, innocent of deceptive intent.  Do you expect me to instantly believe and apologize?  If my speculation was correct, would you come on the board and say so?   I do not know you. 

You can stay and perhaps convince me that you deserve respect and trust or you can disappear from this discussion.  That is up to you.  I can understand why you might not give a damn what I think.  You do not know me.   

If you are indeed sincere and innocent, than I am sorry I have insulted you.  Only you know if my apology is valid.   
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2005, 02:57:27 pm »
Expert opinions, fake patina, sometimes freaky style, flans that all appear to be the same, and indicators that all were engraved by the same person aside...





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Offline Numerianus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2005, 03:39:45 pm »
OK, let us assume that the monneron's coins "are the most dangerous numerous fakes of common late bronze, perhaps ever'.  How many dies he could prduce? Hundreds?  Laying in stock or active?
There are other channels of distributions,  not only to sell them on eBay.   There  so many dealers in France or elsewhere who may have difficulty to  recognize  them as fakes and who will be happy to make a bulk purchase
even to sell them as (possible) fakes.  Until now the patina was a signal (by the way, he could remove colors or doctored it while selling on eBay  and why he did not do this?).  But one can purchase a professional patented patina. I have a large modern  patinated plate  with a cerificate and this certificate includes  a patina, description. It can be of various tones. If one use such a patina, be sure that it would be much more difficult to  recognise the fake.  Being   a forger,  he  follows closely the discussion and learns the lesson.  Could the experts formulate how one can recognized monneron's apart of patina?   

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2005, 09:47:07 pm »
I did not intentionally delete any posts that included pictures.  My intention was to delete only posts that said things like "They look real to me, but I don't know..." or "They look fake to me, but I don't know..." Or which talked about how to make the patina, which would be fine for another thread but it IS obviously not a natural patina.  Certainly specializing in Arles for six years and owning over 200 examples makes your opinion more relevant.  I wish you had said that in your earlier posts.  If you had, your posts would definitely not have been deleted.

I definitely agree they are struck not cast

I believe they are engraved and struck by ONE modern celator. 

I look at the photographs of the coins and the Ales plates that are supposed to look the same and I don't think they look the same.  The Monneron coins seem to be more linear and flat.  They all seem to be the same hand regardless of time period. 

I believe they are modern fakes.  I have showed the pics of these coins to some people who I believe have a good eye for real and fake and they literally laughed at them.  Other experts have expressed their opinions on this board. 

You are an Arles specialist, which means you should be able to SEE these coins better than others.  Perhaps you can. 

I guess the question is:

Are Roman bronze from Arles of this period so different from those of other mints that the experienced dealers and collectors of Roman coins, who believe Monneron coins are fake, lack the eye to discern between real and fake for Arles

or

do you and others that believe that they are real lack the eye and ability to discern between real and fake?

Would I bet my life that they are modern?  No.  Would I throw them away or hold them, just in case?  I would hold them.  If it was only my opinion would I be arguing against them with an Arles specialist collector?  No way.
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Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2005, 06:38:56 pm »
This interesting: This is apparantly what the coins look like when Monneron recieves them from his friend.

Evan

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2005, 07:09:56 pm »
Evan,
   Where did you get this picture?
Bob

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2005, 07:33:25 pm »
Ande, the coin is not in my possession, nor will it ever. Please read the rest of this thread.

Bob, I obtained this picture from a very obliging Monneron (Claude, I believe). I seriously doubt he has any idea that he's selling fakes.

Is the gluey looking stuff some sort of resin used to develop the patina?

Evan

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2005, 11:14:04 am »
That makes sense to what he told me today:

Quote
It was stuck inside the ground pot. We preserved the ground incrustation to show the green patina lower part. This ground incrustation disappears easily with washing and brushing but the patina remains.

Evan

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2005, 12:23:17 pm »
The seller has also told the pot (hoard) story to someone on MONETA-L, but earlier in this thread is a different origin he claimed for the coins:

Quote
I also asked the seller about the authenticity of the coins and the possibility of a hoard, on 20-Jun; here is his answer (original msg, followed by the translation in English):

"je suis certain de l'authenticité des monnaies. Il s'agit d'une vieille et importante collection de monnaies de bronze de Constantin et sa famille dont certaines monnaies m'ont été confiées à la vente. Cette collection comprend de nombreuses monnaies d'Arles mais aussi de bien d'autres ateliers. Simplement j'ai mis en vente spécifiquement quelques monnaies d'Arles pour les amateurs de cet atelier recherché car français. J'ai déjà vendu et vendrai dans les semaines à venir d'autres ateliers. j'avais il y a quelques mois fait une vente spécifique atelier de Lyon."

that translates to:
"I am certain about the authenticity of the coins. They come from an old and important collection of bronze coins from Constantine and his family, some of which have been entrusted to me for sale. This collection features many coins of the Arles mint, but also many others. I specifically put in auction some coins from Arles for the [French, ndt] collectors of this mint, sought after because French. I already sold, and will sell in the next weeks other mints. I had already made some months ago a dedicated sale for the Lyon mint."

So either one (or both) of these stories is not true, or we are meant to believe that he applied the same hideous fake patina both to his hoard and to an "old and important collection" of coins?

As far as this being a hoard, what kind of hoard contains coins from Constantine to Valens, from London to Rome? It could happen, but my understanding is that most hoards are a good deal more homogenous than that.

Ben

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2005, 01:09:06 pm »
   You're right.  Multilple answers to source....is it anciient?.....is it modern?.....one hand or one style?......conjecture?.....phooey!!!   I feel like the dog chasing it's own tail.  I'll follow the advise of Forum and stay away until it's proven different.  My monneron stays in the black cabinet.
Bob

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2005, 10:17:12 am »
Which I suppose is the point. Different areas will always produce different patinations even on hoarded coins.
The obverse on the monneron does look odd though.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2005, 12:18:00 pm »
I don't see much wrong with those 3rd Century coins, though the scan's a bit small. If they are fakes, the guy's amazingly successful at imiating a range of styles. Personally I'd like to see someone of Curtis' standing having a look at one in the flesh.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2005, 12:51:31 pm »
Which I suppose is the point. Different areas will always produce different patinations even on hoarded coins.
The obverse on the monneron does look odd though.

That was not my point.  Several people have noted they do not consider the monneron patina unusual and have called it a hoard patina.  They say they have seen coins with the same natural patina.  These photos are being posted by people who are intending to show that the monneron patina could be natural.  I am saying it looks nothing like the patinas of these coins and nothing any natural patina I have seen.   
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2005, 12:56:53 pm »
I don't see much wrong with those 3rd Century coins, though the scan's a bit small. If they are fakes, the guy's amazingly successful at imiating a range of styles. Personally I'd like to see someone of Curtis' standing having a look at one in the flesh.

While Curtis is unequaled in expertise, we have had someone of Curtis' standing look at one in the flesh and give his opinion.  His opinion is right here in this thread.  Barry Murphy has condemned the coins.  
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Offline *Alex

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Re:Peculiar patina
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2005, 01:19:43 pm »
I'm joining this discussion quite late I see. In fact I didn't notice this subject until I saw that there were 95 replies. I have read only a few of the replies, but I've looked at all the photos, so if I'm repeating a conclusiion that's already been reached I apologize in advance.

In my opinion all of the coins pictured in this discussion with that crappy, powdery looking green patina are fake.

I wasn't aware that Barry had actually examined any of the monnerons "in hand", his post above in fact indicates that he was looking at photographs.
I'm still sitting on the fence............

Alex.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2005, 03:00:14 pm »
I'm convinced that patina is false, but there's nothing particularly terrible or uncommon about repatination, though that is a particularly ugly example. I'm not passing judgement on the coins till they've been examined in hand by an expert. Opinion is just too divided. I mean no disrespect to Barry, but it's been said so many times over that you often can't be certain till you have them in hand.
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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2005, 04:28:19 pm »
I have one of the ex-monneron coins in hand and am presenting the following information that I have been able to gather in the last few weeks.

I have included 2 images. One contains 5 obverses and the other 5 reverses all of similar coins of Constatine II from Lugdunum. They differ in their types in that the coins with the broken reverse legend are RIC 188, rarity R3 and the coins with the unbroken legend are RIC 148, rarity R5. The coin that I have in hand is in the centre in both illustrations. The remaining coins are from coins that have been sold / are currrently being sold as ex-Killington hoard by a reputable dealer. The coin in question is of quite a different style to the top two coins but is very similar in style to the bottom two coins. Similarly on the reverse, looking at the shape and relive sizing of the C - R around the altar the coin in question seems similar in style.

The coin shows evidence of relatively harsh cleaning with little in the way of patina remaining and is reminiscent of coins that have been Lye cleaned, with areas of the coin having been cleaned to the bare metal beneath.

These are simply my observations and conclusions based on very little evidence other than having one coin in hand and some illustrations. I would welcome comments on any / all of my observations.

Regards,
Martin

Offline Numerianus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2005, 02:43:54 am »
I would like to express my thoughts about the discussion  and the role
of moderators.   They do not summarize the facts and the  discussion
progress slowly returning constantly to the  points on which a consensus
seemingly was achieved.

There two several facts:

1.   The coins were  (re)patinated (regretful but usual and sometimes inevitable practice).
This was done in a very awkward way inconsistent  with high qualification of presumable forger. 

2. People who have coins  never not claimed that they are fakes. Contrarily, they
indicate that after, removing the ``greeny stuff",  quite a normal authentic coin appears.
All expert opinions are based on images.   Is it true or not?

3.  Everybody agree that the presumable forger knows well  Arles and Lugdunum mints.
If thecoins are  fakes, they are produced in France, the country where the labor is extremely
expensive (to be precise: the cost of the labor iin France s  26 euros per hour).   Nobody provided an explanation what can be a motivation of such a skillful  to produce individually (and not as a mass  production) forgery of the 3rd century copper.   Apparently, it is econmically unreasonable. 

We should admit that the seller is not obliged to provide an information about
the provenance  of his coin (everybody knows dealers which prefer not to reveal his sources).

I hope that  a moderator of this section, whatever is his position,  should intervene
and try to summarize the achievements existing point of view.   

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2005, 08:14:30 am »
1.   The coins were  (re)patinated (regretful but usual and sometimes inevitable practice).
This was done in a very awkward way inconsistent  with high qualification of presumable forger.  

The production and patination are not necessarily done by the same person. If we are to believe either or both of the seller's claims of provenance, then the only conclusion appears to be that he was the one who added the patina (either to a diverse old collection of coins, or to his hoard coins, once cleaned).

The applied patina, crude as it may be, was presumably added for a purpose, and I would guess the purpose was either to cover something up (e.g. extrememly harsh cleaning) and/or to give a uniform look to the mix and to make buyers believe that all coins are of the same provenance and authenticity.

Quote
2. People who have coins  never not claimed that they are fakes. Contrarily, they
indicate that after, removing the ``greeny stuff",  quite a normal authentic coin appears.
All expert opinions are based on images.   Is it true or not?

No.

Members of the CFDL (not all of who are cuckoos, even if the founder is) bought a group of these coins and mailed them from member to member for in-hand examination. At least one respected and knowledgeable collector, Warren Esty, examined these coins and concluded that they were deceptive forgeries. You can find his post on the CFDL archives. I believe that Barry was also basing his condemnation on having seen this group of coins, but I may be wrong.

Beast also has one of the coins in hand (and I've noticed him buying a few more), and appears to question it's authenticity:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Quote
3.  Everybody agree that the presumable forger knows well  Arles and Lugdunum mints.
If the coins are  fakes, they are produced in France, the country where the labor is extremely
expensive (to be precise: the cost of the labor in France s  26 euros per hour).   Nobody provided an explanation what can be a motivation of such a skillful  to produce individually (and not as a mass  production) forgery of the 3rd century copper.   Apparently, it is economically unreasonable.  

You don't need to be French to forge French coins, and you are making assumptions about the economics and methods of production which are unfounded. Maybe common elements of a master dies were copied and then finished/modified into multiple similar copies? Who knows how the dies were created if fake?

Quote
We should admit that the seller is not obliged to provide an information about
the provenance  of his coin (everybody knows dealers which prefer not to reveal his sources).

True, but neither does he have to lie about it. Neither this being an "old and important collection" of coins (and then all covered in a uniform horrible fake patina), nor it being a hoard seems to ring true.

Quote
I hope that  a moderator of this section, whatever is his position,  should intervene
and try to summarize the achievements existing point of view.    

I agree it would be nice to see a linear progression of the debate.

It should also be noted that metallurgical analysis (which can be done non-destructively via techniques such as X-Ray fluorescence, which are available for coin testing), would likely contribute a lot to the dating of the flans used to produce these coins - are they an ancient alloy or not, do they differ/cluster in composition as one would expect given the nominal mints, or do the flans, regardless of mint, appear to be of common origin?

Ben

Offline Hydatius

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2005, 10:19:30 am »
I see nothing suspicious about about Martin's Lugdunum coin.  It appears to be perfectly legitimate to me.  Although I think there is a consensus that Monneron sold a large group of what appear to be modern forgeries last year, does it therefore follow that every coin he sells or sold is a fake as well?  I have to admit that I find it hard to believe that someone is producing literally scores of different dies, both obvese and reverse, to produce coins of this type.  Somewhere, somehow, die identities are going to start turning up.  They have to.  No one would strike one coin per set of dies and then abandon the dies.  I have knowledge of a number of fake fourth- and fifth-century gold hoards that contained large numbers of coins but very few different dies.  With the large return from gold one would expect the die variety there, not in large batches of $15 coins.   Has anyone found any die matches in coins that have been condemned in hand? 
Just my 2-cents' worth.
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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2005, 11:43:30 am »
I agree that Martins coin looks fine in the image, and the colors indicate lye cleaning (and some green patina left on the reverse, it sometimes happens)

Alex

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2005, 12:16:02 pm »
Alex,
Therin lies the problem. Taken individually and without their patina, many of these coins cause little to be concerned with. The issue remains that many people consider them to be dangerous fakes rather than real coins that have been repatinated. In my example above I can see little possibility that a forger could have imitated the style of the coins from the same issue when RIC notes a single example in Berlin. Whilst this type is no doubt illustrated in Bastien I find it a stretch of the imagination that the style was mimiced so successfully from such limited resources. I am inclined to believe that this coin is legitimate and has been lye cleaned and subsequently repatinated and the patination subsequently removed.
I think that I will me in the minority in thinking this however.
Regards,
Martin

 

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