French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina

[Joe Sermarini]

I think the problem is that Monneron probably has mixed good coins with bad, and for us to simply categorize his sales as "Monneron coins" is simply going to confuse everyone and get us arguing with one another.

If you categorize them, I believe you will only be categorizing between the damn good fakes and the too damn good fakes.   Take that as "hard data point."

[Joe Sermarini]

"However, die links will be a witness of a hoard finding."

Only if the hoard is from the mint.  In this "hoard" which covers a long time span, die links would be suspicious.  That would mean the coins circulated and gathered again into a hoard.  That is very unlikely.  Especially for two barbarous counterfeits. 

I remember, that several months ago Joe was extremely irritated by a discussion about the modern
technology that allows to produce high quality fakes, e.g., using CAD. I must say that his arguments were
quite persuadive. Now he defends the opposite point of view. If a new collector will read this thread,
he may get that there are plenty of forgeries even at the low end.
Personally, I prefer to be on a former Joe's position, saying, NO.

My position is still the same.  I have said nothing about CAD in this thread. 

In several posts senior members of the board presented their experience with not negligeable sample of Monneron's coins confirming the authenticity.  This is bad: no consensus with an expert who confirmed his skill at the authenticity test.
I would say that it would be better to remove the whole thread and start the discussion afresh with new evidences.

No, we will not do that.  I will just point out that the two highest scoring dealers on the authenticity test have condemned these coins. 

[Heliodromus]

It seems some of these coins are now popping up elsewhere....

http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/vso/v24/gb/monnaiesgb9ce9.html

Same coin as here (from monneron eBay sale) :

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=7

Or how's this for a reverse die match :

http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/vso/v24/gb/monnaiesgb0146.html

With coin below from monneron eBay

They were certainly a lot cheaper on eBay!

Ben

[Numerianus]

Surprising discovery!  There are many others famous "greeny" at cgb.fr.  So,   monneron started  the distribution via other channels or... or he has a share
in the cgb.fr business!
Could someone provide the information on this
terrible cgb.fr?  He  regularly suggested interesting and very detailed catalogs of coins (higly overpriced, off limits, in fact) accompanied by scientific  analysis  of the coinage.  I did not expect that this guy  will be a reseller  of ``monnerons"  priced 10 times higher than in monneron's auctions on eBay!   
 

[*Alex]

terrible cgb.fr?  He  regularly suggested interesting and very detailed catalogs of coins (higly overpriced, off limits, in fact) accompanied by scientific  analysis  of the coinage.  I did not expect that this guy  will be a reseller  of ``monnerons"  priced 10 times higher than in monneron's auctions on eBay!   
 

If he has a good reputation and has scientifically analysed them, would that not indicate that the coins that he is reselling are genuine?

Alex

[*Alex]

Remember the British Museum was said to have examined some monnerons and pronounced them genuine. Here is a monneron from the fake gallery which I have tried to "digitally remaster" to give it a sandy patina instead of the usual "jax". Doesn't look too fake to me.

Alex.

[*Alex]

I notice that this thread is no longer "sticky".
A cynic would think that "someone" was just hoping it would quietly fade away.
Which begs the question, why? This is supposed to be a discussion board.
Don't get me wrong, I myself am uneasy about monsieur monneron but I have read nothing convincing either way on this board. I am not going to blindly accept the word  of a supposed expert who has only seen a photo not a coin. The get out clause "some are fakes, some are not" doesn't sit too well with me either, reputable bodies which pronounce the monnerons genuine obviously got real coins. If these are indeed prolific fakes, the output from monneron needs to stay monitored otherwise we will all end up buying them.

Alex.

[Heliodromus]

I notice that this thread is no longer "sticky".

I was surprised to see that also ... I would think the time to un-sticky it would be if they are instead exonerated rather than deemed dangerous fakes. Perhaps it was a mistake.

I've just aquired a "looks 95% genuine" monneron myself as I'm curious to see it in hand.

Ben

[Hydatius]

Remember the British Museum was said to have examined some monnerons and pronounced them genuine. Here is a monneron from the fake gallery which I have tried to "digitally remaster" to give it a sandy patina instead of the usual "jax". Doesn't look too fake to me.

I agree.  There's nothing about this coin that worries me.  But there are many others that do worry me, sold both by Monneron and now by the CGB site.  And not all the odd CGB coins have the odd green patina (but most do).

[curtislclay]

    I acquired a large number of rare bronze and silver coins, some expensive but others reasonable and a few outright bargains, from CGB's specialty lists of the early Severans, Maximinus Thrax, Philip I and family, as they came out several years ago. 
    The prices in those lists were high, but by no means insane. 
    Maybe they are asking more these days, and certainly the US dollar is worth a lot less!

[Numerianus]

Tio be honest, I am in a distress!  This morning I had  an intention  tio say: "Folks, I should appologise to be the devil's advocate not thoroughly expecting the information availlable.  I looked through the Monneron's coins, of his recent posts - they are fakes, flats, uninspired, probably,  mechanically reproduced ".  Moreover,  accepting the point of view of BenB and others I even persuaded myself  in an engineering solution, how the fakes coulld  be created: using a kind of computer-driven pantograph which engraves a line design (say, from a catalogue) an smaller scale 9note that Monneron's product contain rarirtes of the level R5 but no unlisted varieties) .  This techniques may explain that dies have no particular value, except, probably,  especially
convincing: the machine can do a new one.  It seems that this is feasible in the world of microtechiniques.   

 Now I am not so sure:  between  bidders  of his coins are quite a number  of members of this board. 

No one contest that Joe has an excellent feeling for fakes and his opinion in this case
is firm and clear: "If you categorize them, I believe you will only be categorizing between the damn good fakes and the too damn good fakes.   Take that as "hard data point.""

Again cgb is  a very suspicious  French enterprise.  In France one can find ``escrocs" even between top names.      Did  you ever consulted prices of CGB? They sell scrap  and ask for this 10 times as much as  a current level  in the world market.  It is really shameful! And now this story with Monneron's fakes....  O-la-la!

[Numerianus]

To be more specific. A result of today.  Crispus: the winning bid tacitus38(65) 36.25 EUR  (this guy is an amateur) but the second bid was of gb29400(1629), a reputed numismatist! 

[hooverman]

To be more specific. A result of today.  Crispus: the winning bid tacitus38(65) 36.25 EUR  (this guy is an amateur) but the second bid was of gb29400(1629), a reputed numismatist! 

You guys really go for the personal stuff, to suggest outright that Tacitus38 is an amateur is being a bit over the top about this person whoever they are.

I have kept records of each and everyone of monnerons 'fake' or 'hoard' sales or whatever you choose to term them. This buyer has spent E 546.32 over the last 5 months and in total he has purchased 212 seperate lots. Because I really can't be bothered going through them all, if we take an average of the last 5 months at E 28.75 this means he has spent well over E 6000.00 on monnerons coins and I can tell you that many of the earlier sales achieved much more than the same coins are doing now.......An awful lot for an 'amateur'!!

Until the coins are proven definatively by expert opinion one way or another (as seemingly they still have not !) I would watch what I'm saying. It may well turn out that this person has had the edge on many people in purchasing these coins and then who would appear to be the 'amateurs'?

On another note I see only one person has tried to guess the riddle of the 'little poser' Sarmatia. No others willing to have a go

[Massanutten]

      As to the poser....it looks like the common issue of the type for Lyons.  If I were looking for it, I would probably have bought it.  And I guess that is what has gotten many of us reaching for the Mylanta Antacid.  If fakes are being produced of that quality we are in deep doodoo.  Most of us gradually start to collect by a particular ruler, theme or type.  It would be nice if these were always in the inventory of Joe S. or Berk, etc. But unfortunately this is not always the case. 
Best regards, Bob

[maridvnvm]

I have continued work on the Constantius II, BEATA, I posted recently and there is silvering buried under some of the crud sitting on the coin. I have posted an image of the location of the underlying silvering and will attempt to get a reasonable image showing it. Why go to the effort of creating a fake with underlying silvering and then cover it up?
Martin

[*Alex]

I have continued work on the Constantius II, BEATA, I posted recently and there is silvering buried under some of the crud sitting on the coin. I have posted an image of the location of the underlying silvering and will attempt to get a reasonable image showing it. Why go to the effort of creating a fake with underlying silvering and then cover it up?
Martin

Which was exactly my point earlier on in this thread (Page 3). 

Alex.

[wolfgang336]

You're 100% correct Martin! I'm beginning to think that the Lugdunum Beata issues, and probably Sarmatia issues are not fake (as well as most of the Soli Invicto's, but I need to have a closer look). But nobody seems to have answered my question:

IMO all the campgates from Arles are fake, as are those miserable looking Fel Temps and the coins of Decentius. Anybody care to add?

Evan

[*Alex]

My monneron is a campgate from Arles and it has undoubted traces of silvering visible on the reverse. Does that answer your question?

Alex.

[hooverman]

My monneron is a campgate from Arles and it has undoubted traces of silvering visible on the reverse. Does that answer your question?

Alex.

As does the one on page 4 and that is an Arles issue also.

[Joe Sermarini]

Remember the British Museum was said to have examined some monnerons.

I have questions about this.  First "was said" - said by who.  Who took them to the museum.  And second, who did they talk to? 

[*Alex]

This is a post that was made to the CFDL back around the time this thread was getting going, so not discussing his recent offerings but the earlier ones which got this thread started.
Keith
 
 
Hello all,

I was one of the people who bought some coins from Monneron.
Following the discussion on this list, I took 12 coins (8 official, 4
imitative) to the British Museum to see what they had to say. The 8
coins (including Magnentius and Decentius) that are of official dies
were all judged to be genuine. About three of the four imitative
pieces the BM coin curator said that he would have to defer
judgement. There were no obvious signs to indicate a forgery, in fact
their fabrique looked absolutely genuine in the opion of the BM, but
the particular dies were unknown/unrecorded and one would need to
know more about the source. One coin of the imitative group was die-
linked with a piece illustrated in the literature and this coin must
be regarded as genuine.

If the group I bought from Monneron is representative of his
material, I think the claim made earlier on this list that all his
coins are fake must be rejected. It would seem that his official
coins are all or mostly authentic while some of the imitative pieces
remain questionable.





  

Ask Arles? 

Alex.

[wolfgang336]

My monneron is a campgate from Arles and it has undoubted traces of silvering visible on the reverse. Does that answer your question?

Alex.

Not really, Alex. I'm looking for other reverse types that are for the most part, fake. Your example does however, confuse the issue of Arles campgates... So, how does one identify a Monneron fake, if not by patina?

Evan

[Heliodromus]

I saw the post.  Keith quoted someone but did not include the name.

I missed that - I thought Keith himself was the one.

The original CFDL post is here ... the poster only went by the name of Dirk, and had the Yahoo/CFDL name of faltin2001.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList/message/8599

As far as I can see he never posted again after that, despite Warren Esty asking to see which coins he had [supposedly] taken to the BM, so maybe we should disregard that.

However, would you not agree that C.G.B.'s endorsement is significant?

Incidently, I also happened to discover a while back (I'd contacted him to alert him of an unrelated fraudulent eBay item he was bidding on) that the real name of a major repeat buyer of monneron's Arles offerings (and other Arles pieces) is one "Philippe Ferrando" ... a name shared by the author of "Les monnaies d'Arles"... I assume it's the same person, and would take that at least as an endorsemnent of the style of the Arles pieces, for what that's worth.

Ben

[wolfgang336]

The BM's endorsement would be significant, yes, but of course depends on the coins they saw. If they saw an Arles campgate, I'd be inclined to rethink my position.

(I'd contacted him to alert him of an unrelated fraudulent eBay item he was bidding on)

If he was bidding on another fake item, doesn't that exclude him from being a reliable judge of authenticity? Plus, nobody said that the style is too far off (except perhaps those Fel Temps), but we're noticing a few other interesting properties of these coins to ignore. I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say on the subject.

Evan

[wolfgang336]

Ah, well then...

Still nobody has come forward with a reliable trademark for us to latch onto and use to ID these fakes, assuming they are.

Evan