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Author Topic: Imitative wolf and twins  (Read 1322 times)

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Offline esnible

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Imitative wolf and twins
« on: January 18, 2014, 09:29:35 pm »
Usually I don't collect Roman coins but something really attracted me to this tiny AE 8mm when I saw it at the New York International show.

The seller described it as a "barbarous imitation" of Helena / Wolf and Twins.  I don't think there ever was an official Roman coin with that combination.  I also don't think there were any Roman coins quite this small.

Is any kind of catalog or reference on these late Roman imitations?  I would be curious to know if there are other coins like this.  I looked online and found some imitative wolf and twins on Warren Esty's site but nothing else.

Offline Diederik

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 05:11:41 pm »
This is a particularly nice example of the way Roman coins were imitated!
I would say Fausta perhaps rather than Helena, but there is no name to it here.
 No, there is no catalog of imitative issues, as it would consist of merely unique pieces. Only once did I encounter another collector who had a coin made of the same (barbaric) dies. Nobody knows how many there are and their rarity depends not on numbers, but on the 'fantasy' of the copyist. The more original, the nicer - like yours.


Frans

rick2

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 10:34:12 am »
the two sides are not aligned , so it could be the result of clay mould casting using two unrelated dies

nice coin

Offline esnible

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 11:01:28 am »
It is surprising (to me) that these issues are not well-understood.

I would have expected there to be a catalog of them, either the inventory of a museum or an illustrated auction catalog with thousands of these.  Does no one collect them?

I can see why it would be hard to understand the issuing tribes, given that the coins have no labels.  With unlabeled Greek coins the approach is by find spot.  For example, I have read that in Turkey the museums are entitled to everything found in their region and these museums never buy or sell.  So scholars guess the mints based on the number of samples in museum inventories.

For coins found in northern Indian and Central Asia there are also recent efforts to ask local antiquarians where the coins are found, even for coins being sold without provenance in the West.

Is anything like this starting for the late Roman imitative coins?

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 05:41:54 am »
Great coin.

Ed, your comments highlight a serious deficiency.  Sadly late Roman bronze coinage remains the "poor man of Numismatics".  It might seem surprising for some given that they represent the bulk of Roman coins out there, one of the most common entry points for new collectors, as well as the bulk of site and area finds at most sites.  But if you look at the high end literature - just for example articles in the AJN over the last 20 years - they are clearly the most neglected.  There is a real bias out there.  It is sad but I understand how the high end institutions would rather wave around some expensive Greek tetradrachmas to lure in the donors instead of cheapo LRBCs.....

To do what you suggest would be great.  But it would appear to take some real horsepower - getting out in the field, visiting museums, in other words spending time and money.  And as long as LRBCs remain basically the preserve of enthusiastic amatuers such expenditure is very difficult. 

It needs to be promoted more.  Interestingly in speaking to numismatic students in Vienna almost all are fascinated by imitatives yet there is little formal attention given to them in their courses.

I wonder if there would be a way to create on online database and at least allow collectors to upload their images.  Sometime like the forum galleries and coinproject but just for LRBC imitatives.

Shawn

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Diederik

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 06:20:27 am »
Well summarized Shawn!
Quote
I wonder if there would be a way to create on online database and at least allow collectors to upload their images.
I quite agree, but this should be done properly. What you would need to know is the place or approximate place of fabrication in order to compose tribal or regional coinages. This was also done for the Celtic coinage, which in many respects is comparable if not identical, but only later in time. Groups of contemporaneous imitations and their prototypes should be distinguished, otherwise the field becomes totally disordered. The British Isles will be a nice starting-point with their many local imitations starting as early as Claudius and Gaul with a myriad  of imitations from the end of the third century onwards, are just two places one could begin with.
As you say; it will be an arduous task.
Wonder if there are such specialist collectors here on Forum.


Frans

Offline Holding_History

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 07:47:47 am »
Very cool coin! I used to collect city commemoratives and late Roman imitations. I have had them with Constantinoplis obverses and she-wolf reverses, VRBS ROMA obverses and campgate reverses, but never seen this one before. Congrats!
Nathan
All the best,
Nathan

Offline Adrianus

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 08:20:52 am »
I have done quite a bit of work on these, most of it unpublished. This is an unusual little copy with a Fausta obverse. The species as a whole belongs to Britain and North-western Gaul and is roughly contemporaneous with the coins being copied. They do not, as some people persist in saying, belong to barbarian tribes beyond the empire who, being barbarians, would not have used low-value coppers in the first place. Nor do they belong to the sub-Roman period.
I have some of mine (a small proportion of my collection) in my gallery here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1296

And an article I did many years ago can be found here:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I assembled a list of over two hundred die-links but the group as a whole is rather large to deal with  :(
There are a number of distinct stylistic groups, however, which do stand out.

Regards,

Adrianus

rick2

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 12:27:03 pm »
i dont know..

i d think personally that these copies were made much later , possibly 370 and beyond , possibly even in the Vth century
some of these copies have a very close style to the imitative fel temp reparatio

the main problem is that we stick toghether all non official coinage into imitative , but in this imitative class you can distinguish different examples

for example you have two classes of FTR imitative , one very close to these urbs roma and ranging from 8 to 13mm
and one with garbled legend that could be coming from the other side of the danube

personally i think we still have a long way to go before we understand these series


Offline Vincent

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Re: Imitative wolf and twins
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2014, 08:07:54 am »
This is a very good account of the Fel Temp Repartio imitative series. I once was able to look at it in a University Library.

It's about 400 pages in length with plenty of pictures and plates.
I found it very adequate in explaining these and the economic conditions present at the time. Well worth the trouble in finding a copy. Believe it may be part of the BARS series of prints

"Copies of the Fel Temp Reparatio Coinage in Britain: A Study of Their Chronology and Archaeological Significance Including Gazetteers of Hoards and Site Finds"
Front Cover
R. J. Brickstock

1987

 

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