Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Hungarian medieval COTD  (Read 3601 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Hungarian medieval COTD
« on: December 22, 2013, 04:47:34 pm »
 Hungarian Anonim denar


Istvan III., King of Hungary, (1162-1172 A.D.), AR-Denarius,
diameter: 13,0 mm,
weight: 0,20g,
Unger-086,
CHN-1-157,
Huszar-171,

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-103265





Best regards

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Christopher H2

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 519
  • Assistant Junior Numismatist at Themis Numismatics
    • Themis Numismatics on Biddr
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 06:10:47 am »
As I noted in your other thread, it seems like this is an overstrike, and the earlier coin's obverse became this coin's reverse, and the other way around. A really cool feature on an already great coin!

Offline Quant.Geek

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 12:09:48 pm »
Here is my Hungarian medieval COTD for Christmas Eve  :)

Hungary: Andrew II (1205-1235) BI Denár (Huszár-232, Réthy-195, Unger-150)

Obv: Head facing forward; castle with four columns as its chest
Rev: Facade of a stylized building; lily above and m inside



This coin is available on my gallery at:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-104379

and you can find more Hungarian Coins in my album at:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5121

Cheers,

SpongeBob

Offline Potator II

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1636
  • Error communis facit jus
    • Monnaies de la Dombes
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2014, 12:30:29 pm »
I have to admit not knowing anything about hungarian medieval coinage, but through your gallery I dicover wonderful coins. Thank you for sharing them

JC

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2014, 04:09:04 pm »
Quote from: Christopher H2 on December 23, 2013, 06:10:47 am
As I noted in your other thread, it seems like this is an overstrike, and the earlier coin's obverse became this coin's reverse, and the other way around. A really cool feature on an already great coin!

I know nothing about medieval coins but this one sent me looking at other examples pictured online and I saw several with similar shadows of the design of the opposite side as mentioned here.  This is exactly what I would expect not from an overstrike but from a die clash.  Clashed dies are the result of the two dies being struck together without a flan in place between them causing damage to the weaker of the two dies.  On ancients, this usually shows as damage to only one, the reverse, die but it seems possible that two very simple dies made of the same metal might damage each other allowing both designs to show in incuse on the wrong side.

While the examples are ancient, my page on die clashes might explain the theory better:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/brock.html

Obviously it would help greatly if someone has another coin of the same die set with the shadow marks in the same places.  All coins struck from clashed dies after the clash will show the damage in the same place while a second strike would be different on each so the undertype evidence could be in a different place.  I am also wondering if a very thin flan might allow a bit of a shadow from the lack of pressure opposite the more deeply cut parts of the die.  This would not require damage to the die from an accident but would show on all coins with very thin flans.   Does anyone expert in medieval silver see possibility in either of these ideas given what you know of the minting techniques used for these coins?

Offline Christopher H2

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 519
  • Assistant Junior Numismatist at Themis Numismatics
    • Themis Numismatics on Biddr
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2014, 12:19:27 am »
Hi Doug, thank you very much for your insights.

Quadrans himself noted in another thread that it is a result of "the suction effect" and offers this example of another coin type: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-103262

Quote from: quadrans
Hi Chris..

Yes it is very thin .
As can be seen in the negative side of the counter.
The resulting image is a result of the suction effect.
The more the better seems thinner insert this effect.

I had myself, after posting in this thread, had the thought that it could be the result of die ghosting.

However, I feel that your explanation of clashed dies is more likely!

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2014, 04:06:15 am »
1st. Im sorry I forget it this thred   :(

@SongeBob:
""Here is my Hungarian medieval COTD for Christmas Eve  Smiley

Hungary: Andrew II (1205-1235) BI Denár (Huszár-232, Réthy-195, Unger-150)""

I congratulate your Christmas present and thank you your comment.

Q.

2nd

@Potator II

Hi JC.
 Thank you very much your nice words. Im very happy if somebody like my favour it coins ... +++ +++ +++


3rd
@Chris.. and
@Doug
Thank you very much both of you the interest and the interpretation this kind of coins "clashed dies". and so on...

@Doug of course I was read your home page several times not only this reason :).

I have also several examples in the antic coins like a die clash as the last you can see :

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-104120

This very thin Hungarian coin's die was made by "punched technik" and than they were strucked the "suction effect" caused several times the other side the negative  "shadow picture"..

@Doug:
Finally I have an interesting coin in my Gallery (several others at home ) which showed as most complicated result as you see belowe this coin have two shadow picture the revers side ... How they were made of..??

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105189

Best regards

 Joe as Q.


All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2014, 06:27:00 am »
Quote from: quadrans on January 02, 2014, 04:06:15 am

@Doug:
Finally I have an interesting coin in my Gallery (several others at home ) which showed as most complicated result as you see belowe this coin have two shadow picture the revers side ... How they were made of..??

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-105189


I have wondered about this feature for some time.  I know nothing about them but wonder what was on the side opposite the die.  Was it a hard anvil or, perhaps something with a little give to it like leather?  Someone might be able to discover what works with modern tests making replicas. 

Offline Stkp

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 05:50:51 pm »
I have to admit not knowing anything about hungarian medieval coinage, but through your gallery I dicover wonderful coins. Thank you for sharing them

JC

I am glad that people are discovering the charms of my favorite coinage.

Offline Stkp

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 05:56:51 pm »
I have to admit not knowing anything about hungarian medieval coinage, but through your gallery I dicover wonderful coins. Thank you for sharing them

JC

I am glad that people are discovering the charms of my favorite coinage.

Offline Stkp

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2014, 06:06:34 pm »
[quote/]
This is exactly what I would expect not from an overstrike but from a die clash.  Clashed dies are the result of the two dies being struck together without a flan in place between them causing damage to the weaker of the two dies. 

Obviously it would help greatly if someone has another coin of the same die set with the shadow marks in the same places.  All coins struck from clashed dies after the clash will show the damage in the same place while a second strike would be different on each so the undertype evidence could be in a different place.  I am also wondering if a very thin flan might allow a bit of a shadow from the lack of pressure opposite the more deeply cut parts of the die.  This would not require damage to the die from an accident but would show on all coins with very thin flans.   Does anyone expert in medieval silver see possibility in either of these ideas given what you know of the minting techniques used for these coins?
[/quote]

This kind of overstrike is quite common on medieval Hungarian coins from this time-period.  Here is another example from my collection:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-50101

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2014, 06:14:45 pm »
Hi Stkp  :)
Nice to hear you :)

Thank you your comment ..
I have to explane a several ideas and methological, and technical things, but litle bit complicated, because the english It's not my native language.

Best regards
 Joe
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Stkp

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2014, 11:30:24 pm »
Joe,
As you know, I don't understand Hungarian, but if you would like my editorial assistance with English I'd be very happy to help out.

Steve

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 02:49:45 am »
Thank you again Stkp.. :)

 +++

Regards
Joe
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline reebeezlee

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Pecunia non olet
    • My galleries
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2018, 08:06:06 am »
Very nice example :)

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2018, 01:30:11 pm »
Thank you,  +++

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1993
Re: Hungarian medieval COTD
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 03:44:40 pm »
The last one is a really cool coin, I didn't know there were medieval coins with Squidward on them!

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity