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Author Topic: A thread for scarce and/or interesting GLORIA EXERCITVS soldiers & standards.  (Read 48623 times)

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seth

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This is a scarcer issue of the common soldiers & standards type:

OBV: CONSTANS IVN NOB C; laureate, draped, cuirassed bust in paludamentum r.
REV: GLOR – IA EXERC – ITVS; 2 soldiers with 2 standards in between them.
EXE: SMHB* Heraclea mint.
REF: RIC VII Heraclea 139, rated R5
333-335AD.

It's an interesting early emssion for Constans at Heraclea with the IVN titulature which should've been used for Constantine II. The pictures are the seller's.

rick2

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 04:53:47 pm »
i would not pay any attention to the rarity listed in ric 7
some issues listed as C or S in the ric 6 are actually much much scarcer than a lot of the issues rated r3 r4 or r5 in the ric 7

Offline curtislclay

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A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 05:35:37 pm »
However this is a rather interesting and important rarity: Constans was called IVN only at Heraclea, and only on this one reduced follis, known to Bruun in one spec. in BM (officina A) and four in Vienna (off. B, Γ, and two with mintmark off flan).

So Cohen 70 valued this coin at 6 francs, citing Vienna, compared to just "C", meaning less than one franc, for standard GLORIA EXERCITVS types.
Curtis Clay

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 10:24:45 am »
Since we are on this subject, I would like to bring to the table another odd title from this mint of Heraclea. It is attributed to Constantine II and the obverse legend read:
CONSTANT NVS VM AVG with the same reverse but only one standard LRBC 947.
I for one have 2 examples of this equally scarce variant and actually believe it was minted for Constantine the Great as a posthumous issue under Constans, like his Aquileia issue. Constans was against these death commemorative and this may have been a concession to his eldest brother.
The VM may stand for  (VN MR or "Reverend Memory).
The normal type may have helped make these more acceptable in Constan's mind.

Wildwinds Link

a plate from the Wildwinds website.

It also has been suggested that the VM title may mean "Victor Maximus", a title Constantine II was awarded and also inscribed on his Rome issues with VIC.

Regardless, a very unusual issue for this very common type


seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 11:23:06 am »
Although rated a measly S, I couldn't find another one online, which gets me to think how many of these rare varieties are out there but being the fact that gloria is such a mundane type they fly under the radar.

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 12:09:00 pm »
Here is another VM issue I found online:

http://www.chijanofuji.com/constantine2gloriaexercitus2.html

Seth, you may be correct in not being noticed. My second example was wrongly listed. Regardless, these are scarce because Constantine II issue as Augustus are scarce. I have not seen many of these.

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 12:19:03 pm »
I don't think they are that scarce, I have had many and somehow decided none was worth keeping. Although if I would have come across a VM AVG, I would have kept it.
Constantine II continued the MAX AVG (before going for the PF AVG) of Constantine I so many get them confused. Thanks for the link, good eye ;)

Offline SC

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 02:11:47 pm »
I agree with Vincent that the CONSTANTINVS VM AVG coins from Heraclea are likely posthumous coins for Constantine IRIC notes that this is possible and presents the VM as Victor Maximus idea.  Guido Bruck suggested that the VM was for Venerae Memoriae.  Personally, as the closest parallel is the CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG issue at Aquileia I like the Victor Maximus option as it would be a closer parallel to that Maximus.  But we have no way of really knowing.

Sadly I own neither a CII VM nor a Constans IVN.  Nice find Seth.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 05:56:24 pm »
Seth, check out a Forum thread here on the topic of Constantine II as Augustus.
I can attest the Heraclea "VM" issue is very scarce/rare. I spent years attempting to acquire one of these and was lucky to come across the two I found. The second one was by chance.
I agree that we may never know the real meaning of the letters. Perhaps one day some research numismatist will come up with the answer. Perhaps the type of headband, like at Aquileia< is the key to the answer?

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 07:48:51 pm »
Hehe, Vincent, thanks for reminding me. I reread both the posts about Constantine II (as i read my own back then comment on one of them I could actually remember writing it, which is so consistent - I tend to remember even the most inconsequential thing that happened long ago but some important daily things somehow evade me) with pleasure.

Offline SC

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 03:38:35 am »
I think the key at Aquileia is not the head band but that through the three or four mint marks in question the GLORIA EXERCITVS type was issued with four obverse legends:  CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG, CONSTANTINVS AVG, CONSTANTIVS AVG and CONSTANS AVG.  If the two Constantine legends were not used consistently throughout the period we could think that they simply switched the one used for Constantine II.  But that fact that each mint mark clearly has two different Constantine legends implies two different Constantine's were meant.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 05:16:19 am »
Hi Shawn,
Thank you for your answer.  I really just went by my copy of LRBC by Kent that listed the posthumous type of Constantine the Great with a "2aN" bust and the Constantine II issue with a "3aM" or "J" bust.
The Posthumous Constantine had a Bust that was laurel and rosettes, cuirassed in a "paludamentum".
Constantine Jr was either shown with a Bust that was with only a Laurel and cuirassed or one that had rosettes in the laurel.
You are correct that Constantine's legend of CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG was for him, while Jr. had CONSTANTINVS PF AVG.
Interesting, I really have not taken the time (sorry to say) to investigate the one standard Gloria Heraclea issues myself.
It would be a worthwhile effort to see if there are differences in the headbands and Busts. In Aquileia Constantine was shown with the Paludamentum, while Jr. was not.
Perhaps a hoard of ae's containing these that can be studied and will reveal more about these if it is recorded and studied.

Offline Vincent

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A possible "VM" Title Heraclea Gloria Exerctius for Constantine JR.
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2013, 10:07:30 am »
I just found this example that appears to be a "VM" issue of Constantine, From the portrait it is obvious the younger Constantine Jr. At least that is my first impression.
I have yet to examine the coin itself but clearly the obverse legend begins with CONSTANTI NVS(VMAVG). If it was the "regular" obverse legend it would have "DN" at the beginning "DNCONSTAN TINVSPFAVG" with a different obverse legend break! The other that was used was CONSTAN TINVSAVG another different obverse break from the "VM" issue and shorter legend.
Hard to say from the picture, may be an important discovery. Hope I can make out the letters (VM) when I examine the coin itself. The photo is not too clear.

Offline SC

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2013, 10:52:42 am »
Couldn't it also be CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG - with a bad portrait?

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2013, 06:49:30 pm »
Shawn, that is a likely possibility and to be honest I have not seen too many of  these "one standard" examples. There are plenty of two standard issues to look at and compare. I will do a few tricks to see if I can make out the ending, at least the letters after Constantinvs. I'll make a plaster copy, use foil and tracing paper and lead dust to see if I can make the letters out. Regardless, it is a coin that I'm glad to add to my collection. I'll report back after I have it in hand.
Pretty neat and overall sharp detail.
Thanks for you comment and interest.

Offline SC

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2013, 03:58:40 am »
It is interesting.  And when I said "bad portrait" I meant if it was meant to be Constantine I because it looks so young as you pointed out.  It is actually a very interesting portrait and the detail on the reverse is great too.

Shawn
SC
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seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 11:25:15 am »
I also think Vincent's last coinis MAX AVG, I think you can actually see the X at 3o'clock.

Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2013, 10:28:46 am »
Thank you Seth, and I will take into account your impression. These issues were generally undersized with only a partial obverse reading.  LRBC writes...."in the one standard issue the legends and busts are frequently changed instead of a change in the mintmarks."  So, the portrait does have a bearing, as with the legend. Also, at the time of Constantine's death, a very fluid situation developed. So, let me examine and do the necessary "operations" to see if I can determine the 2 letters after Constantinvs. It may not be possible and if not, I'll likely attribute the coin to Constantine the Great, his last issue of Heraclea.  I did a quick search for other one standard issue examples, a couple came up, that did not help the topic. But as the coin below show, the more "normal style" bust that displayed for Constantine Sr. and of much better style as Shawn pointed out.

numismaticman

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2013, 02:49:35 pm »
  On this subject of rarer obverse legends of Constans , how rare are the GLORIA EXERCITUS type of SISCIA mint with the obverse legend
    FL CONSTANTIS BEA C ?

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2013, 06:11:11 pm »
I for one don't find them rare at all. Maybe the one standard ones are a bit scarce.

numismaticman

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2013, 07:11:20 am »
  Hi Seth ,
               Thanks for that response , it agrees with the impression that I have also . It is though of slightly more importance as the obverse legend only occurs at this one mint with the GLORIA EXERCITUS reverse with both one and two standards , I wonder why that is the case .

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2013, 11:29:15 am »
Unfortunately I can't answer your question about why this strange variation appears only at Siscia. Maybe someone else here has more insight about this.

Offline SC

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2013, 10:31:46 am »
Can't answer specifically why but I think that they key is that while mints received some clear instructions  - such as the details of the design - other things such as mint and field marks, and at times titles, were not as centrally controlled.

This regional variance is what part of what makes collecting LRBCs fun.

Shawn
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Offline Vincent

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2013, 01:24:19 pm »
Just received the Constantine  "Heraclea" possible "VM" coin and in hand I am sad to report it is not possible to determine the two letters after "NVS" in Constantine's name.
The planchet edge has a tiny edge "pit" defect where the letters are to be found. It could very well me a VM or MA. So be as it may, will list it as a Constantine the Great issue, since the coin is on the heavier side 2.24g. The last of his before his death from his mint. Very odd style issue coin. Looks official in execution, but the portrait has a younger profile.
I suppose that is what makes collecting these fun, sometimes the mystery and discovery (or lack of it). Thanks Guys for your opinions.

seth

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Re: A scarcer GLORIA EXERCITVS.
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2013, 03:23:33 pm »
Vincent,

Ever since I saw your coin, I am on a look out for this elusive VM issue but no luck up until now. I think that this VM and the IVN for Constans might be the rarest issues for the type.

 

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