Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet Challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins!!!

Recent Additions to Forum's Shop


Author Topic: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin  (Read 2226 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« on: July 12, 2013, 03:07:10 pm »
I have been interested in the denarii of Julia Domna for fifty years now and time has grayed some of the details I wish I had written down.  Long ago I recall seeing one 'first legend' coin with the obverse legend split DOM-NA rather than DO-MNA as is found on all other coins in my experience.  I do not recall the details or why I did not buy that coin (or even if it was for sale) but I always wanted to find a coin with that oddity. 

Be careful what you wish for.  I happened across what could possibly be the ugliest Domna coin I have seen but it does have the DOM-NA split.  The coin might be a bronze of unofficial nature but I believe it is a normal base silver (the good stuff was about 50% in that period) Rome mint denarius that has suffered more than most.  The lowest stratum of surface I see is the porous toned silver with grey and red overlay.  When I got the coin there was some bronze disease (soft green) in a couple pits and treatment for that did not improve the appearance.

I believe the dies (other than the legend split) are of reasonable style for the period (there is a lot of variation in these) and offer 'normal' silver coins that strike me as of similar hand.  Certainly it could be a copy die but it makes no sense to change the letter spacing if the goal was simple counterfeiting. 

Does anyone recall seeing this die or another coin with a split other than the normal DO-MNA?  Can you accept this die as a Rome product?  Now that I have this coin, my wish list has been altered from a coin with this split to a decent coin with this split.  I may not have 50 more years to wait so I'll hope it comes faster next time.

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 02:37:40 pm »
Very interesting, but my gut feeling would call it irregular. The lettering is slightly cruder than normal, not to mention the metal composition.
I saw a coin on Fleabay a few years ago and did not buy it, which I can only blame on the fact that I am stupid. I attach the pictures below; it was irregular too, and had the obv. legend IULIA D - OMNA AUG.

Best regards,

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 03:22:17 pm »
Thank you.  I certainly agree this last coin is irregular but the question remains on how far style can vary before it can not be official.  The only interest (non monetary value) in my coin is if it shows one die cut in error and corrected by the mint.  I have a poor grasp on telling poor metal from the regular alloy exposed to extreme conditions so I did not write off my coin just because of that metal.  My hope in this posting was to find either another specimen or a reverse die link to a normal Do-mna die.  Admittedly, that is a very long shot here.

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 04:29:28 pm »
My hope in this posting was to find either another specimen or a reverse die link to a normal Do-mna die.  Admittedly, that is a very long shot here.

True, but I'm inclined to say that here or nowhere is where you may find it.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline Lerian

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 04:35:59 pm »
Just an update to the story, this coin purchased today.

Rome?  Regular?


Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 04:43:13 pm »
Yes and a die duplicate of mine, I believe.   Thank you for posting (sorry I missed that one).

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 05:08:02 pm »
Lerian acquired the coin for 138.92 euros.

My bid was 138!

The next bid, apparently the only other bidder who had noticed the unusual legend break, was 78.90 euros. I suspect that that bidder was our Rupert!
Curtis Clay

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 05:10:48 pm »
No, I'm innocent this time. Very interesting and beautiful coin though!

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 05:31:00 pm »
I believe the die was cut accidentally omitting the M and it was added later when discovered.  I say this because the spacing is not exactly where I would expect it if the cutter just continued in order.  Of course, this could not be proven unless there is a coin of the die lacking the M but there is absolutely no reason to believe the error was not discovered before the first striking.  While we always have to allow for the possibility of it being unofficial, I see the style as perfectly normal and perhaps even better than average for the issue.   Is it rare because someone objected to it after a few coins had been struck?  Another coin to seek would be a reverse die link tying this die to other, normal, coins. 

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 05:48:34 pm »
I see the style as perfectly normal.

I agree; I have no doubt that it is an official coin.

Finding the same reverse die used with a normal DO - MNA obverse die would be nice, but isn't necessary: from the style and fabric we already know with sufficient certainty that the coin is from the mint of Rome.

I also agree with Doug that the odd legend break is an engraver's error or caprice, but how it came about, via an initially omitted M or some other way, I wouldn't want to speculate. We'll never know, unless, as Doug suggests, a coin from the same obverse die without the M turns up!
Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 07:11:16 pm »
I'll hope one turns up but do not expect it.  I would point out that the value I receive from Forvm membership quadrupled with Lerian's post of this coin since I recall seeing a coin years ago and then bought the dog of a coin that started this thread.  It is something of a personal matter but obviously of no great importance.  I have no idea how many dies were used for the huge issue of Domna coins but I find it interesting that they were, now almost, consistently DO-M while Septimius used considerably more variations over the same years.   Again I have no proof if there was any meaning attached to such matters as spacings and punctuation or if it is all, to use Curtis' term, 'caprice'.

Thank you, Lerian, Thank you, very much.

Offline nummis durensis

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 51
    • perinawa
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 09:46:24 am »
I think "caprice" is the right word for that.

I was the "third" with the bidding  :afro:

best regards,
Rainer

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2014, 11:35:21 am »
Hi Rainer, welcome here! (Explanation to the others: Rainer is a very active friend from the German Numismatikforum.)

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline nummis durensis

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 51
    • perinawa
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2014, 01:49:13 pm »
Thanks a lot Rupert...

my english is bad but my interest in Roman coins (and history) is big  ::)

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 11:17:12 am »
Here's my coin I got a few days ago. Also in bad silver, and harshly treated by time so it only more weighs 2.05 g at a diameter of 18 mm. Die axis is 6 o'clock. Seems to me to be die-identical to Lerian's specimen.
The legend even reads IULIA DOM - INA AUG! ;-)

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline stevex6

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1518
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2017, 12:21:21 am »
Wow, Mentor => I love your cool camo-painted OP-Domna (sweet addition)

... yah, I don't recall seeing that beauty before (nice reverse!)

Oh, and sweet new coin Rupert ...  man, you guys have some great stuff, eh?

 +++

Weird, because I always thought that Julia Domna coins looked like this ...

Sorry Doug/Mentor ... I can't resist showing-off my stuff before it all goes away

...  :Csquare: :H2s: :reversedepsilon: :reversedepsilon: :reversedR: :reversedS::Greek_Mu: :Greek_Psi:  :Greek_Digamma: :reversedR: :Greek_Xi_2: :GreeK_Sigma: :reversedN: :reversedD:




Offline Meepzorp

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4260
    • Meepzorp's Ancient Coins
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 06:36:50 am »
Hi doug,

I like coins with that reverse. I guess it was the Roman equivalent of a porno magazine? ;D ::)

I have an Augustus denarius with a similar reverse (first coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/ri_aug_ar_pt02.htm

Meepzorp

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 10:18:07 am »
As I am sure you are very much aware, the Roman's views of such things
differed greatly to the some of the attitudes in modern times, especially the
more prudish and "Victorian" places.
It may even be of some interest to look up Venus Callipygos; literally meaning
"Venus (or Aphrodite) of the beautiful buttocks" (Greek: Ἀφροδίτη Καλλίπυγος).
Also: Callipygian Venus. Domna's reverses are among the best of this type.

Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Nicholas Z

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: IVLIA DOM-NA AVG coin
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 11:31:39 pm »
Thank you dougsmit for posting.  I found this very informative.  I purchased my example because I had not yet bought a Julia Domna coin with DOMNA on it. 

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity