Author Topic: IDENTIFICATION AND PROBLEM WITH BUST DESCRIPTIONS IN RIC (Read 10526 times)

Lech Stępniewski · « **on:** March 10, 2004, 04:24:27 pm »

The big RIC weakness is the lack of photos - specially when the differences are not obvious. I have permanent problem with bust descriptions in RIC vol. VI and VII.

In vol VI there are sometimes used addition: "seen from rear". For example bust "laureate, draped, cuirassed" is distinguished from bust "laureate, draped, cuirassed seen from rear".

In vol. VII the similar term is "seen from back".

How can I properly determine that bust on my coin is "seen from back" (or not)? Could anybody explain me clear these differences using good pictures as example?

maridvnvm · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2004, 05:27:12 pm »

I hope you don't mind me using some Probus coins from my collection as examples.
The first example is Radiate, Draped and cuirassed seen half from the rear. What you can see is the Back and shoulder of the emperor with the cuirass beneath the drape showing under the shoulder with the shoulder clasp.

The next example is usually just described as Radiate, draped and cuirassed but clearly shows the image as being seen from the front.

Does this help?

Regards,
Martin

Lech Stępniewski · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2004, 05:54:52 pm »

Yes, it helps! Thank you! I feel I am close to catch the difference. Up to now I carefully examined emperor's head and I see that it was completely unnecessary. But I will be very grateful if someone shows me additionally few coins from RIC vol. VI and VII. Just to be sure what were Mr. Sutherland and Mr. Bruun ideas.

maridvnvm · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2004, 07:01:38 pm »

Here is a Diocletian Radiate, draped and cuirassed (seen from the front)

Obv:– IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG, Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust facing right
Rev:– CONCORDIA MILITVM, Diocletian and Maximianus standing facing each other, holding between them globe surmounted by Victory
Mint – Alexandria (B / ALE)
RIC VI - Alexandria 46a (C).

Martin

Jochen · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2004, 07:01:38 pm »

Hi Lech!

This was a problem I was puzzled too. But by looking long at the different busts I think I found the solution. Here I have a coin where the bust on the obv. is seen from back. It is not from RIC VI or VII but from RIC V/2: It is Constantius I Chlorus RIC V/2, Antiochia 673 var., C.164

Regards,
Jochen

Lech Stępniewski · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2004, 08:07:45 pm »

Hi Martin and Jochen!

Thank you for your efforts, but I think that this lesson will be useful not only for me.

So far I noticed one important thing: when bust is draped there is always some kind of "knot" on toga. Bust "seen from front" has that knot under the back of the head (see picture 1). Bust "seen from back" has knot moved significantly to the right (or left when bust is turned left) - now his place is under cheek (see picture 2). Ear is a good point of orientation and we can say that bust which has "knot" on toga behind ear is "seen from front" and bust which has "knot" before ear is "seen from back". Is it right? But what when the bust is only cuirassed?

Picture1

Lech Stępniewski · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2004, 08:08:44 pm »

Picture2

maridvnvm · « **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2004, 05:10:51 am »

Well here is a Follis of Constantine the Great with Cuirassed bust right (seen from front)

Obv:– IMP CONSTANTINVS AVG, Laureate, cuirassed bust right
Rev:– SOLI INVICTO COMITI, Sol standing left, holding right hand high in salute and globe.
Mint – Trier (T F / BTR).
RIC VII 105

Glad you are finding this useful.

Regards,
Martin

Jochen · « **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2004, 03:38:18 pm »

Hi Lech

Your graphic is enlightend! On bust right you can say when the knot is left of the ear the bust is seen from the front and when the knot is right of the ear then the bust is seen from behind!

Regards,
Jochen

Jochen · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2004, 05:15:33 pm »

Hi!

Here I have an addition to the bust problem. It is Geta RIC IV/1, 13(a). Described as Bust, draped, cuirassed(?), head bare, r.

I would say the drapery is seen from behind!

There is another Geta, RIC IV/1, 39. Obv. described as Bust, bare, r., with drapery on left shoulder!!!
I would like to see this! Anyone there who has this coin and can post the scan?

Regards,
Jochen

Jochen · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2004, 05:17:53 pm »

Forgotten to attach the scan (Alzheimer?)

Regards,
Jochen

maridvnvm · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2004, 05:48:56 pm »

Jochen,
You are correct with the attribution of "draped, cuirased, seen from behind" I do not unfortunately have this coin with the other requested bust type.
Martin

Heliodromus · « **Reply #12 on:** June 02, 2008, 10:03:02 pm »

In case it helps further clarify what we're seeing here, I kidnapped one of my wife's dolls to pose for some seen from the front / back photos! Introducing .... Imperator Olga!

The first photo shows Olga, with the stylish remains of an imperial cloak and brooch on her right shoulder, in profile, showing how the brooch joining both sides of the cloak is positioned on her right shoulder.

The second photo shows Olga first at a slight angle from the front, then at a slight angle from the back. Notice how the position of the cloak brooch (orange) shifts relative to the body in these different perspectives.

(cont)

Heliodromus · « **Reply #13 on:** June 02, 2008, 10:03:52 pm »

Now, to get closer to what we see on the coins, I've grafted the profile head onto both the above seen from front/back shots, and truncated them just below the shoulder so we no longer have the pose clue of the arms.

Finally a couple of Constantine coins from my collection to illustrate these. Hopefully it's obvious whether they are seen from front or back! Note that sometimes the brooch itself isn't really clear (or maybe not enngraved at all) on the coins, but the position of it (and hence the shoulder position) can be implied from the folds of the cloak leading into it, just as we don't actually need the orange brooch on Olga to tell the shoulder position because the drapery leading to it tells us where it must be.

Ben

Jochen · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2008, 06:09:50 am »

Nice idea to show the doll!

Best regards

Mark Z · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2010, 10:17:04 am »

Morning All!

Don't know how or why I stumbled onto this thread, but I'm glad I did. Super discussion!

All hail Empress Olga for her enlightenment of the untutored masses! (me being chief among them!)

Thanks to all

mz

mwilson603 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 27, 2010, 05:00:11 am »

Are there any theories as to whether there was any symbolism involved in the bust type? i.e. did the facing bust mean one thing, and the bust from behind mean something different?
regards
Mark

Mark Z · « **Reply #17 on:** April 27, 2010, 04:36:51 pm »

Quote from: mwilson603 on April 27, 2010, 05:00:11 am

Are there any theories as to whether there was any symbolism involved in the bust type? i.e. did the facing bust mean one thing, and the bust from behind mean something different?
regards
Mark

Mark,

Great question!

This is just a guess, but seems as though it is more in the realm of being an interesting way of posing the subject, as you see this type of pose a lot throughout history.

Here's a portrait from each of the centuries from the 15th to the 19th, in no particular order:

mwilson603 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 27, 2010, 07:14:52 pm »

Quote from: Mark Z2 on April 27, 2010, 04:36:51 pm

This is just a guess, but seems as though it is more in the realm of being an interesting way of posing the subject, as you see this type of pose a lot throughout history.

Thanks for the response Mark. You are probably right with it just being a posing choice, although I was kind of hoping for something a little more exciting like "the facing" being a demonstration of the emperor looking at the empire, and "the from behind" him looking at expanding the empire.

regards

Mark

Mark Z · « **Reply #19 on:** April 27, 2010, 07:57:15 pm »

Quote from: mwilson603 on April 27, 2010, 07:14:52 pm

Quote from: Mark Z2 on April 27, 2010, 04:36:51 pm
This is just a guess, but seems as though it is more in the realm of being an interesting way of posing the subject, as you see this type of pose a lot throughout history.

Thanks for the response Mark. You are probably right with it just being a posing choice, although I was kind of hoping for something a little more exciting like "the facing" being a demonstration of the emperor looking at the empire, and "the from behind" him looking at expanding the empire.

regards

Mark

I like your theory a lot better, too!

mz

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Author Topic: IDENTIFICATION AND PROBLEM WITH BUST DESCRIPTIONS IN RIC (Read 10526 times)