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Author Topic: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )  (Read 5857 times)

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Offline Brian L

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My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« on: March 31, 2013, 01:24:26 pm »
Hello,
Would someone tell me what I am doing wrong, attached is my latest best effort at coin photography.
I'm using a Cannon T2i with a 100mm Macro lens, which is about 11 inches from a small coin 8mm.
My problem, which applies to all my coins, is to much detail, my pictures show every nook and cranny on the surface.
The coin pictured is silver and under magnification is a bit porous but in hand looking "up close" doesn't look as rough as the shot implies.
Again all my coin photo's come out this way.
I'm comparing to the Forvm gallery, people have some excellent surfaces on their coins, but some early silver is always a bit porous
but it doesn't show in their photos, which are always smooth.
And I'm not thinking of any gallery photo's in particular, none  show the annoyingly close up detail that mine do.
I'd appreciate any advice in improving my shots.
Thanks,
Brian

 


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Offline Akropolis

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 01:35:26 pm »
The "gut issue" is: Do you want a picture of the precise details of a coin, or a picture that makes the coin look more pleasant? If the latter, get a more inferior camera, or perhaps use the "blur" tool in your image manipulation software.
PeteB

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2013, 01:40:40 pm »
I was wondering if my 100mm macro lens is to strong,
would I get better results with a 50mm macro?
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Offline Mark Z

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2013, 01:46:55 pm »
Brian,

In essence what Pete is saying is that the camera doesn't lie and does a much better job of looking "up close" than your eye can do.

I suppose that if you were to look at your coin with a magnifying lens you would see the same imperfections.

It's a hard lesson to learn but, Like Cromwell, we should see our coins for what they are, "warts and all."

Regards,
mz

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2013, 01:57:39 pm »
Your problem is you are using direct light.  Try  using diffused light.  Put a piece of white paper or similar around the coin and allow the light to pass through that.  It will reduce the "harsh" details that are reflected. 

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2013, 02:06:35 pm »
Thank you, Jay GT4,
I took advantage of the sun through the window this morning, wanted to try natural light.
I've always had a problem diffusing light, tried many materials,
when you say "a piece of white paper", I guess you mean note book paper (with lines, spiral, 3 ring binder) type?
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2013, 02:13:58 pm »
Without lines is better.  Plain white printer paper should work. I've made the paper into a cylinder and surrounded the coin with it and then put the lens through the hole at the top. It's best if you can mount or rest your camera on something to keep it steady as you may have to open up your aperture to get more light in.  Usually though I just use natural but indirect light from a side window when it is overcast.   Play around with different techniques.  Different coins need different lighting and set ups.  The good thing is its all digital now and we aren't wasting film! :)

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 02:37:49 pm »
Printer paper and I have a pretty good tripod,
I'll try again this weekend.
Thanks for the tips,
Brian
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 04:27:07 pm »
I think there is something that can help: I notice that the coin has a rough surface which when hit by light tends to glitter and reflect in different directions. That makes the coin look somehow worse than it probably looks in hand. I suggest taking some new photos away from direct light, in a diffuse light environment that will not produce reflections, perhaps in well-shaded sunlight, perhaps in direct light on a dark and cloudy day, perhaps with light directed against an absorbent neutral-colour (unbleached unstarched) cotton cloth. Play around a bit with locations and/or with diffusing fabrics and lighting direction.

I doubt that your camera being just-too-good is the problem, but being too keen to light the coin properly may be a problem. I can almost guarantee that with a good camera and with the right amount of diffuse light you will grab pictures that look at least as good and probably better than the coin looks in the hand.

Offline James Anderson

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 10:09:54 pm »
Glare is always going to be a problem when making coin images in direct sunlight. You might try lowering the exposure as well as the methods described above. If you can deal with this, you should try what I always do: use your graphics software to zoom out until your image is somewhat like the actual size of your coin. If the image looks like your coin, then the roughness is a  natural result of the magnification and you shouldn't try to do anything about it. Jim A

Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 07:18:14 am »
I think the main problem is that the picture is out of focus and possibly exposed and lit incorrectly. The white highlights, because they are out of focus are 'blooming' and merging with one another. Perhaps because the coin is quite small that the subsequent low pixel count is exacerbating the problem. Not sure.

I am in the process of re-photographing all my coins. As over 600 coins appear on my web-site, the task is on an industrial scale! The following might help.

I use the same camera as you (Canon 550D in the UK). I use a Sigma 150mm Tele-macro lens. That's even 'stronger' than yours, but it allows me to work further away from the coin. The camera (or rather, the lens) is mounted on a copy stand, with integral lighting. I connect the camera to a computer via a USB port and use the EOS software that came with the camera to view and operate the camera. You can zoom in to adjust the focus with pin-point accuracy and adjust the lighting to your heart's content. The 'take' button is on screen, so no camera shake, which enables longer shutter speeds to give a better depth of field.

Lighting is crucial. I have two lamps with reflector bulbs. I use one lamp unless the design on the coin is so raised as to create deep shadows on the side away from the first lamp. Don't put the lamp(s) too close to the coin. I put them approximately twice as far away from the coin as the camera is. The reason is that if you put a lamp close to the coin then light hits the coin at a wide angle -say 45 degrees. This creates no shadows and therefore no detail and with a silver coin in particular, light bounces off at every possible angle. With the lamp further away (in the vertical direction), the light hits the coin at a much narrower arc - say 10 degrees - and the detail of the coin is nicely picked out without extraneous sparkles.

Of course, rules are made to be broken. Some coins need different treatment, but the above works for me. Below are 2 recent photos. The first one is a similar size to yours, the second, a stater.
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 07:46:12 am »
Hi PeterD,
I mount my camera on a Manfrotto tripod, which is extended to be abt 12 inches from the coin.
I also use the EOS software for camera controls, I manually focus because I haven't found if the EOS program can focus the camera.
My trouble has always been lighting, yesterday I tried natural light through the window,
I usually use two lamps to position, I use 1 to cancel the bright spot created by using only 1 lamp,
think I'll try only one.

Could you tell me how far should the lens be from the coin, I always heard "fill the field",
but I'm thinking, with a macro lens, perhaps that's to close,
I could put the coin on the floor, extend the tripod several feet and use the zoom on the EOS program.
    OR, using a 100mm macro, "should" the coin be abt 1 foot from the lens?


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Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 11:26:58 am »
The first photo is my  latest effort.
The second is the same as above added to compare easier.
Both unaltered other than cropping.
For my new shot, most external light was blocked and I used one 40w lamp,
with a sheet of paper as a screen, the lamp is abt 3 feet away, 11:00.
As far as the camera settings the new darker shot was at f5.6 and the other f9.
The new shot has less "scratchy" detail, from a higher f#, but the color is off.
I like the darker shot, its not as blinding,
although it still doesn't have the look of others coin shots in the Gallery.
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Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 11:54:56 am »
Hi Brian,

Regarding the EOS software: I assume on the main control panel you have selected 'Live shoot' and thus have the window open showing the image. You can do an autofucus from the 'Focus' box, but if you double click on the part of the picture that needs best focus, another window comes up with a close-up of that part of the image. You can fine-tune focus with the arrows in the focus box.

Macro lenses don't magnify, they allow the camera to get nearer the subject and in that way make the image bigger. Modern cameras have a high enough resolution that you don't neccessarily need the coin to fill the frame. But for very small coins, especially if the camera is out of optical focus, the resolution may be insufficent. I prefer to get the picture as big as possible within reason, then when I resize it to a more realistic resolution, any errors are diminished in the same proportion.

I'm not sure what you mean about the lighting. What sort of light do you use? I will give an example of a typical set-up:

Let's suppose the coin has the bust of an emperor. The camera is at a height that the coin fills half the frame. One lamp is used. That lamp is a so-called spot light i.e. it is silvered on the back so that the light is somewhat directional (but not like a stage spot-light). That's not critical, but it helps increase the light level and helps the depth of field. In the horizontal direction, the lamp is positioned so that it points at the emperor's face but slightly more at his forehead, rather as you would a real-life portrait. In the vertical direction, the lamp should be about 24 inches above the coin, fairly close to the camera/copy-stand. Ambient light should be sufficently weak to have no effect. This set-up is a starting point. Experiment from that point. If the back of the emperor's head is too much in shadow, then introduce a second lamp on the other side.

That's what works for me. Others may have different techniques. To illustrate the point, here's one I made earlier.
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2013, 12:19:44 pm »
I'm not sure what you mean about the lighting. What sort of light do you use? I will give an example of a typical set-up:

Let's suppose the coin has the bust of an emperor. The camera is at a height that the coin fills half the frame. One lamp is used. That lamp is a so-called spot light i.e. it is silvered on the back so that the light is somewhat directional (but not like a stage spot-light). That's not critical, but it helps increase the light level and helps the depth of field. In the horizontal direction, the lamp is positioned so that it points at the emperor's face but slightly more at his forehead, rather as you would a real-life portrait. In the vertical direction, the lamp should be about 24 inches above the coin, fairly close to the camera/copy-stand. Ambient light should be sufficently weak to have no effect. This set-up is a starting point. Experiment from that point. If the back of the emperor's head is too much in shadow, then introduce a second lamp on the other side.

That's what works for me. Others may have different techniques. To illustrate the point, here's one I made earlier.

I usually use natural light. Cloudy-day light. It seems to work better than any experiments I've ever made with artificial lighting. The trick I use is to move the coin rather than the lighting - move it away or nearer the light source, and rotate it 15 degrees each way between shots. A coin is a round object that weighs a few grams and is a lot easier to move than a lighting setup. I think so anyway. Often I take 6 rapid-fire shots about 15 degrees apart of a coin, then select the best of the six in a photo-viewer prior to any editing. I find that very time efficient, better than messing about with lighting choices. Shoot every which way, then just choose the best. I think it saves time but others may prefer more advanced set-up. Often I shoot hundreds of coins in a day so efficiency trumps perfection.

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 12:30:36 pm »
Peter,
Your photo and coin are perfect.
I'd like to see your shot of a coin similar to mine, age, size, scratchy.
I do use 'Live shoot', great feature, manual focus, and take abt 20 shots of each side,
changing the exposure, and finding the most pleasing,
going to try some adjustments, guess its trial and error,
lighting is the issue and I think depth of field,
I think I want to use an abt f5.6 -6, 100 iso...Just thinking in writing.

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Offline areich

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 01:46:45 pm »
A copy stand is just about the quickest way to shoot. Most coins need little adjustment and nice bronzes like the one shown here are easy. Silver coins are harder and except for using less light and diffusing the light (a white plastic bag works as well), I haven't found any good solution. Nicely toned silver is unproblematic.

I forgot, experimenting with the angle the light comes from can make a difference with crystallized silver.
Andreas Reich

Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail.
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 01:54:34 pm »
Hi Brian,

Here is a picture of a Byzantine silver coin. The coin has poor surfaces and it shows. The second picture is of the emperor's head at more or less 1:1.

The human eye is very clever. It shows a bright silver coin. A photo shows the reality.
Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context https://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 07:42:04 pm »
So, this is how I spent my day.
Unedited, just a crop. There pretty close to the actual coins in color and condition.
I don't think they came out bad, at least their better than the scans in my gallery.
  What did I learn today, to be consistent use lamps and diffuse the light,
try a lower f#, 5.6 or similar, I think f8 is to much.
I'd be interested in others opinions.
Appreciate all the advice.
Brian
Those who stand for nothing,will fall for anything.- Alexander Hamilton
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Offline Akropolis

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 08:20:05 pm »
They seem overly dark. I played with the first one in Photoshop. Is it closer to the coin "in hand"?
PeteB

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 08:55:45 pm »
Hi Akropolis,
Appreciate the efforts, buy yours is to white, gray.
In hand the coin isn't as dark as my photo,
it has some brown reddish hues in the fields and a kind of darker silver in raised areas.

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Offline dougsmit

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 09:14:06 pm »
With a Canon, try shooting RAW and have the coin with you when converting your images.  Canon gave you DPP software free with the camera for the purpose although you may also use Photoshop/Elements or any of a dozen other programs that are not free.   I am lazy and often shoot JPG directly but sometimes get a coin that resists my efforts and needs the RAW method to get the color right. 

Sometimes the answer for lighting is not to light the coin but light the whole room shooting the coin is this very diffuse light.  There is no single lighting technique that works best for every coin.  I keep telling myself I should destroy all my coin photo pages because they only show coins that worked well for the lighting I was using that day.   I seem to try something new every time I shoot coins with results varying from better to horrific.  That is part of the fun.  As Pete pointed out, it is necessary to decide if you are going for accurate or for pretty.  Considering that need, sometimes I find myself not buying a coin because I know from looking at the thing that it will be a bear to photograph.  Only buy pretty coins (from Pete?) and you are half way there!  ;D

Are you tired of seeing those online sales photos of coins held in a hand?  Some of those sellers realize that a little tilt of a coin in the light can make a really big difference and it is easy to wiggle the coin until you see what you want and snap.  You can look through the camera and see what you might expect to get as well so don't be afraid to rotate, tilt or shade the coin - whatever gives you what you want. 

My latest 'failure':  The coin looks better in hand but the photo emphasizes the light cover on the dark fields and the textures.   Dark coins can be hard to capture.   I'll try and try again but considering the small size of the coin and the larger size of the photo, I may be asking too much. 


Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 09:34:06 pm »
Hi Doug,
So THAT'S why they take coin photos in hand!
I'm moving my coin photo setup to the second bedroom, off the dining room table and away from my wife's kitchen lights.
Finally installed the EOS programs on my laptop.
I'm blocking all ambient light and want to mount the lamp(s) abt 11:45 to 12:15.
I do shoot in raw, although I don't like making big adjustments, just a point or two on saturation or reducing sharpness,
I don't like adjusting color to make the photo match the coin, it looks artificial.
By the way, I wish I took photo's like your "failure".
Thanks for the advice.

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Offline Akropolis

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 09:46:26 pm »
Brian:
A MAJOR point!!! Do you use a "daylight" bulb?? If not, I suggest you buy one (or two) from Lowes or any such store! Common household incandescent bulbs inject odd colors into your images!
After you do this, turn off any nearby household lights....and pull the shades.
PeteB

Offline dougsmit

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 11:04:42 pm »

After you do this, turn off any nearby household lights....and pull the shades.
PeteB

 It is amazing how little light of a wrong color can destroy a photo just by putting a blue streak on one edge.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2013, 12:21:35 am »

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2013, 04:56:04 am »

Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2013, 06:32:38 am »
Peter, London

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Offline dougsmit

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2013, 09:53:18 am »

Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2013, 10:15:26 am »
Peter, London

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Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2013, 06:49:35 pm »
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Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2013, 05:56:28 am »
Peter, London

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Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2013, 06:05:43 am »
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Offline PeterD

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2013, 06:38:28 am »
Peter, London

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Offline dougsmit

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2013, 07:14:04 pm »

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2013, 07:36:36 pm »
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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2013, 07:46:14 pm »

Offline Akropolis

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2013, 09:04:15 pm »

Offline Brian L

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2013, 09:52:00 pm »
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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2013, 04:33:19 am »
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: My photo's have to much detail. (Final photo's )
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2013, 05:55:47 am »

 

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