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Author Topic: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur  (Read 12607 times)

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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« on: February 26, 2004, 07:09:43 pm »
Hi all,
Attached is a scan of a coin of Julia Mamaea from Nicaea, Bithynia.
The obverse isn't up to much but I find the reverse quite charming, but up to now I have been unable to identify what scene it portrays.

As there is no bow or lyre I suspect it is not Chiron. The scene does however resemble a scene on a c.6th century BC amphora in the BM, which displays the Centaur Pholus greeting Heracles on his way to hunt the Erymanthian Boar.

Any help would be appreciated.

Steve

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2004, 07:10:48 pm »
And the BM amphora:

Offline curtislclay

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2004, 08:57:45 pm »
     No such type in Recueil General at Nicaea for J. Mamaea or anyone else, at least I found none illustrated in the plates.
     What are the two figures doing with their hands extended toward each other?
     What are the size and weight of the coin?
Curtis Clay

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2004, 09:19:59 pm »
Curtis,

I can't tell for certain what the figures' hands are doing, it could be that they are exchanging an object, the scan shows it at almost as well as the naked eye and I don't have a microscope or similar.  The one feature I can make out that doesn't show clearly on the scan is that the figure on the right seems to be holding/bearing a transverse spear (you can make it out to the right of his legs) with a triangular point.

Diameter: 23mm
Weight: 9g
(sorry I should have quoted these before)
The obverse legend ends MAIA CEB  

Thanks for takeing the time to look.
Steve

Offline Automan

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2004, 02:09:04 am »
Wonderful reverse type! Have never seen it before!

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EmpressCollector

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2004, 07:07:30 am »
I have never seen that reverse type before so I am not qualified numismatically to comment on it, but remember from your mythology that Chiron, the Centaur, taught medicine to Asklepios.  Perhaps Chiron and Asklepios are the subject of this scene.

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2004, 09:42:56 am »
Thanks for the suggestion.

It would seem unlikely to me that Askepios would be depicted as a warrior, which the rightmost figure appears to be: if the centaur is Chiron, it would seem more likely that the figure was one of his more militant students, such as Jason, Heracles or Achilles.

Steve

Offline Gert

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2004, 05:36:30 am »
Hello,

Just some thoughts about the centaur.
1 Is it safe to say the figure on the right is holding a round shield? If that's the case, it cannot be Herakles, who as far as I know is never portrayed with a shield. That also means the centaur can't be Pholos.
2 A agree with sminnoch that it's unikely the figure is Asklepios, if the figure is depicted as a warrior, holding a spear and a shield.
3 The scene is peaceful. Maybe the figures greet eachother. Also, the spear is pointed downward.
4 I think the only centaur who was not militant in myth was Cheiron (apart from Pholos' encounter with Herakles)
5 These consideration lead to the figure on the right identified as Jason or Achilles being taught by Cheiron.
6 There is also the story of Peleus and Cheiron. The centaur made him a gift of a spear at his wedding.

best regards,
Gert

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2004, 06:22:09 am »
Hi Gert,
Thanks for your interesting comments.
I think the figure is most likely holding a shield, though I couldn't be 100% sure that it isn't a bundle of equipment and an assegai like is shown on the amphora, unfortunately it is a little too warn to be sure.
Depending on the source other students of Chiron include Theseus,  the sons of Asklepios (Machaaon and Podalirius) and Actaeon

Any idea what the long staff-like object the  centaur is holding is?  I wonder if that could be the key?

Steve

Offline whitetd49

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2004, 06:38:30 am »
That is tough to interpret.  I'm not sure that you weren't right with Pholus and Hercules.  The round "shield" object could be the lion skin, the staff could be Hercules club (figure on the right is clearly holding it), and the objects at the right on the ground would be the bow and quiver.  The centaur looks to be holding on the left a fan (?) like on the amphora.  
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Offline Gert

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2004, 08:05:38 am »
Hello,

On whitetd49's comments: I have never seen Herakles hold his club like that, in the middle. I also don't think the round object will pass as a lionskin / bundle of equipment. It's more likely to be a shield. The object on the ground can be seen as the lower part of the warriorfigure's garment (but on the other hand: aren't warriors depicted nude?).

On the stafflike object: I first thought it was the centaurs raised arm. But I read one of the things Cheiron taught Achilles was to play the flute. I assume this means the 'pan-flute', which is depicted on coins the way it is today. I don't know if there are other kinds of flutes depicted on vase-potery & coins.

But considering Achilles, the greatest warrior of the Iliad is rarely depicted on coins (I wonder why, but that's another topic) this fluteplaying Achilles would be a very obscure scene to depict on a coin.

For the same reasons of obscurity I think Actaeon and the sons of Asklepios are out of the question. I think it's a teaching scene of Achilles or Jason. The shield is hanging from his shoulders and the spear is pointing downward. So the warrior is not in 'fighting mode'.

The 'fan' in the centaur's hand is perhaps part of his garment. Compare Mars' dress in this Elagabalus denarius.

Best regards,
Gert

Offline Gert

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2004, 08:14:54 am »
Considering Pholos and Herakles: the thing the centaur offered to Herakles was a 'communal wine jar', which Herakles was hesitant to open. I don't know if the small object can pass for that.

Best regards,
Gert

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2004, 06:49:08 pm »
I doubt that the "fan" (for want of a better description) is part of a garment, centaurs are almost always depicted as totally naked. and the only centaur I cna find wearing anything is wearing some sort of small skin around his neck:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?lookup=1990.14.0269

Previously I had thought the centaur was holding a much longer staff, but I now think what I thought was the end of the staff is in fact his left foreleg.  Centaurs are often depicted holding branches or using them as weapons, but it hardly looks like a branch.

The search at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_Greco-Roman.html comes up with a number of images depicting flute players, none I looked at have a flute resembling the object in this scene.

There is no way a wine jar is shown, but that doesn't in itself mean the scene couldn't by Pholos greeting Herakles before the feast at which the jar was opened.

Steve

Offline slokind

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Re:Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2004, 01:05:51 am »
In Greek and Roman art, beginning with Apelles, the Centaur who is seated is usually Cheiron, and the scene on this wonderful coin should be Peleus bringing the infant Achilles to be educated by the wise centaur Cheiron: he is the tutor of heroes.  Therefore, I agree with the earlier message by Gert.  I should add that the earliest representation of this part of the Achilles myth is from ca. 650 BC, Middle ProtoAttic vase-painting.  You can see it in Berlin, at the Altes Museum.
Patricia Lawrence

Offline archivum

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 08:27:03 am »
I just happened on the Isegrim entry for SNG v. Aulock 784, a Sev. Alex. from Nicomedia, which includes a description for something much like your reverse [... false alarm, based on image].
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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 07:40:13 pm »
Although in itself a very interesting sounding reverse that I was interested to see, I struggle to see how it could be connected to my coin, unless it is part of a trend to show scenes from mythology in Bithynian coinage at this time?

(oh sorry, just noticed your edit)

Steve

Offline slokind

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2008, 12:49:20 am »
Dear Steve,
With regard to your wonderful Julia Mamaea at Nicaea: I knew that the Berlin vase by the Ram Jug Painter, being fragmentary and as old as the style is, Middle Protoattic, c. 670 BCE, might be difficult for those unaccustomed to this art.  But your coin, at the head of this thread, IS Peleus Bringing the Infant Achilles to the Good Centaur Cheiron, Tutor of Heroes, and now that I can make a combined image larger than 200 KB by joining my museum photos of the curved surface, I hope that you can make it out.
Reading l. to r., the head of Peleus, then, on Peleus forearm, the infant Achiiles (hair, sleeve, dotted shirt, little arm), then, facing them, coming from the other side of the vase, the centaur Cheiron, with his emblem, an unrooted pine tree, over his shoulder (note his layered hair, like that of little Achilles), on which hang his prey.  Typically in later art you might have a hare, a cat cub, and a cervid.  There is always a lot of discussion when you teach this remarkable Homeric illustration, not very much later than the poems themselves, as to which animal is which (and then they all fail to learn that it is Attic, 7th c., Early Archaic, red-clay, not yet really black-figure pottery, or even who Peleus was).
If you can just 'read' the Ram Jug Painter's style, you will see that this is just the same presentation as on Julia Mamaea's coin about 900 years later.  I think this will be big enough, and it's only 224KB.
Pat L.
Taken with a pre-digital camera hand-held, here is the copy of Apelles' painting with the Centaur seated.  It is from the Basilica at Herculaneum.
CLICK on images.

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 02:50:47 am »
I think that illustration will be difficult for any time period just because of how fragmentary it is.  I admit I struggle to follow how the fragment you say shows part of Achilles is interpreted.

I can certainly accept the "staff" Chiron holds on the coin as an abbreviated version of his pine tree, shrunken for reasons of space.  Would you expect Achilles on the coin to be in the oval area on Peleus that I have been interpreting as perhaps a shield?  And how are we to interpret the arrangement of Peleus' right arm and Chiron's left?  Are they exchanging something, greeting each other, clasping hands or is the overlap just, again, a matter of compression of space?

Steve

Offline slokind

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 03:54:52 pm »
I can't find the baby Achilles on the leading coin, either; I didn't worry too much, because we recently were looking at Herakles and Telephos, where one coin had Telephos so tiny that, in spite of the good preservation, you had to know just where to look for him. 
The centaur seated is noteworthy, because, not only do equines of the natural kinds not sit down like that, but it seems even more difficult for the composite creature, with one rib cage and forelimbs after the other--supposing such existed in nature.
But in the second half of the fourth century BC someone, probably Apelles, with the magic that comes with superior imagination and a very good knowledge of the anatomical components, made Cheiron sit down, thus emphasizing his humane nature most effectively.  Thereafter, one finds even sculptural seated centaurs; at Corinth there is a seated equine hindquarters that was puzzling until someone remembered Cheiron.
I attach a 6th century broken kylix (max. pres. H. about 2.5 inches) by the artist called the Heidelberg Painter.  This piece is in Palermo (I've taken it, in fair use, from the 1949 Beazley, DABF, pl. 20, 2).  I'm still hunting for the Herculaneum painting, full length.
The point, to come round back to it, is that so far as I know only Cheiron and only after the 4th c. BCE sits down like that.
Pat
P.S. Here's Cheiron from a half-century-old paperback.  All my life I have been delighted by the artist's being able to pull off this improbable pose and situation so gracefully: why I love the Greeks so much.
No, I cannot PROVE that your coin has an infant Achilles.



Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 04:49:19 pm »
The back half is sitting like a dog; it's quite weird!
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Offline Akropolis

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 10:16:34 pm »
Unless I read too quickly, no one seems to have mentioned that the figure on the right is either draped and/or is wearing boots. That seems to certainly rule out Herakles. Is there any connection with Hermes?
PeteB

Offline slokind

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2010, 02:02:15 am »
Pete, I am sure, is right.  Once the famous, probably Apelles, painting was known, when a centaur sat down like a scholarly gentleman (or a dog, if Robert prefers), the traveler approaching him (and boots are relevant) is almost certainly Peleus bringing Achilles to the good centaur's finishing school for heroes.
There are of course vase paintings showing other heroes and centaurs, but this isn't Herakles and Pholos.
The cup by the Heidelberg Painter and the vase by the Ram Jug Painter in Berlin are too early to attempt (or even think of) having Chiron seated that way.
Apelles (and that would be the right generation, even if you want to question the sources that name him as the painter) worked for Alexander the Great.  The painting from the Basilica at Herculaneum which I have posted above is, of course, a freehand copy, though it shows many traits for which we have literary evidence at the end of the fourth century BCE, and (like the others from the Basilica at Herculaneum) a large painting, an expensive one, for a wealthy town's basilica.  In the background it shows Macedonian architectural forms, too.
I hadn't thought of it, but I never saw Herakles in boots, let alone effete sandals, either.
Pat L.

Offline Tom Mullally

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 09:38:26 pm »
I'm not sure how I missed the original thread, since Nicean coins are one of my areas of interest...

I don't see a warrior here at all.  I think the transverse scepter you are seeing is actually the folds of his robe and top of his boots.  I don't see a shield either.  I think I can make out the infant Achilles in the left arm of Peleus.  I can see his head and body cradled in his arm.  Or maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think I see it.

Beautiful coin, by the way.

Tom
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aordy001

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Re: Julia Mamaea, Nicaea, centaur
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2011, 07:47:38 am »
yess Ok Thank Fro you SoMuch in Business!  :branchleft: :branchesthreeright:

 

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