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Author Topic: help identify siliqua  (Read 3014 times)

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duncoin

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help identify siliqua
« on: October 22, 2012, 04:41:57 pm »
Hello all . I am a bit stumped on this siliqua . I at first thought it was valens . but noticed it has extra letters .between valens and spfavg , cant make them all out.
so it it a valentinian I II or III . also the mint is strange CVDP , Lyon ? the coin has a weight of 1.7g and measures 11mm.
thank you for any help

Offline justus

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 08:47:32 pm »
Perhaps a light Siliqua of Valentinanus I. Mint of Lugdunum. Struck circa ? AD.
Obv. D N VALENTI – IANVS P F AVG (NV in ligature), pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right.
Rev. VOT X dot MVLT XX (dot ?) in laurel-wreath. LVQP (Q ?) in ex.
Ref. ?

justus
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duncoin

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 09:18:47 pm »
Hello all . I am a bit stumped on this siliqua . I at first thought it was valens . but noticed it has extra letters .between valens and spfavg , cant make them all out.
so it it a valentinian I II or III . also the mint is strange CVDP , Lyon ? the coin has a weight of 1.7g and measures 11mm.
thank you for any help

SORRY MISTAKE IT MEASURES 16MM not 11MM

Offline ionutbd

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 01:35:38 am »
Light siliqua or fouree one?
Seems like a ancient fake...all the pitting and misspell...

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 07:41:30 am »
Fouree's of siliqua are very rare.  Perhaps they were too think to allow for much profit from an AE core.
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 09:30:08 am »
Fouree's of siliqua are very rare.  Perhaps they were too think to allow for much profit from an AE core.

There seems to be a golden mean in coin dimensions, considering all eras and regimes. Make the coins too thin, such as siliquae or english hammered, and they are prone to being clipped. Make the coins too thick, such as archaic tetradrachms, and they are prone to being plated without easily being discovered. Somewhere in between there are dimensions which are not so easy to clip (without it looking as if a chunk had been chiselled away) yet not so easy to plate!

Offline PeterD

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 11:56:45 am »
In the giant Hoxne hoard of over 15,000 gold and silver coins, 98.5% of siliquae were clipped. 428 were irregular but of full silver. Some of these were manufactured 'pre-clipped'. There were a small number of plated coins, known as cliches. The difference between them and earlier fourrees was that the silver foil was not wrapped round the core -for obvious reasons.
Peter, London

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rick2

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 04:29:52 pm »
exactly  irregular , not fouree

a lot of people seem to use a single word for fakes and forgeries when there s a thousand possible meaning :)


btw looks irregular to me as well

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 04:38:56 pm »
When were they clipped? I seem to remember that there was mass clipping of siliquae in Britain in the 5th Century or so. That's not the same as illegal clipping to sell the silver or use it for forging coin.
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Offline justus

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 07:50:21 pm »
exactly  irregular , not fouree

That's exactly what I thought, when I saw the clumsy-looking legend of this coin the first time.

justus
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rick2

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 03:58:05 am »
britain is one of the areas that has been more extensively studied , so i would not be surprised if the same results applied to other region of the western empire too

anyway i ve read that the mass clipping occurred to recycle the sivler into irregular siliquas that were issued in order to keep these coins in circulation
it s thought that these siliqua circulated also after 413 when the romans left as the population saw the need for a decent currency

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 10:26:46 am »
britain is one of the areas that has been more extensively studied , so i would not be surprised if the same results applied to other region of the western empire too

anyway i ve read that the mass clipping occurred to recycle the sivler into irregular siliquas that were issued in order to keep these coins in circulation
it s thought that these siliqua circulated also after 413 when the romans left as the population saw the need for a decent currency

My understanding is that clipping was much less common outside of Britain.
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rick2

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 10:38:00 am »
it could be !
i ve only seen one or two sources concerning britain and i d always put this down to the fact that the subject is well researched there.
certainly if clipping was occurring in britain one would assume that it occurred throughout the western empire , which at the time was pretty much cut off.
but i might be wrong

as for the east it could be a different story altoughether , as it seems that these siliquas were minted in great quantities in the west


btw some of the hoxne hoard is on display at the british museum , it s in the anglo saxon section in the east wing and not in the roman section in the west wing (around room 68-70)

Offline PeterD

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 01:34:57 pm »
Anyone interested should buy or borrow "The Late Roman Gold and Silver Coins from the Hoxne Treasure" by Peter Guest (BM Press). Many of the questions asked above are discussed in detail as well as others, such as why the hoard was buried (not necessarily because of axe-brandishing Saxons).

The coin hoard was truly enormous and included other silver and gold artefacts. The finder received £1.8 million in 1992!
Peter, London

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 04:12:51 pm »
Britain fell out of the Roman Empire in 410, but would still have been within its sphere of influence. Gaul and other provinces were still within the empire, and its culture would have persisted here until, probably, after the final collapse of the West. It would be interesting to know how the weight of the clipped siliquae compare with that of the ones being minted at that time. What happened to the mintages in the 5th Century? There could easily have been a felt need for silver coin coupled with a lack of availability, and this could have led to the adaptation of what was available. Are the clipped siliquae found in the same hoards as 5th Century examples?
Robert Brenchley

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rick2

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 08:42:38 am »
as far as i know there is a gap of around 250 years in the issue of coins in britain
the last roman mint closed in 380 and the first anglo saxon coins are recorded in 620 ad

so there must have been some sort of coinage circulating at the time

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 04:37:37 pm »
There has to have been some way of exchanging wealth, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been coin. It''s possible, for instance, that precious metals could have been exchanged as bullion. Someone has to have written on this somewhere!
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rick2

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 04:32:45 am »
the staffordshire hoard that was found a few years ago was made up uf cut up gold jewelry from anglo saxon period

you also have to look at the fact that money from old roman times was probably still available to circulate as medium of payment and also that the population dropped dramatically so there was no need for much money as the economy would have moved towards subsistence.

there were a couple of interesting discussion a while ago on the somali shilling , which is a very similar but modern situation to this one

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2012, 04:42:16 pm »
What's the evidence of a drop in population? It was largely a subsistence economy already, but there would have been no legions requiring payment, and no taxes to pay to Rome. It would be interesting to know what proportion of the money economy revolved around those two!
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Offline Siliquae

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 03:10:08 pm »
Hello,

Very interesting Siliqua. The mint mark (LVDP) is not unknown for me : there is another similar "Irregular" found last year in England (see PAS research website). I had record in my database and I give you the picture I found on the PAS web site :

VALENTINIAN I (364-375) for LYON
Silique lourde, 364-375

A/ D N VALENT-INIANVS AV  (N et V ligaturés)
Buste à droite, diadémé (Perles), drapé et cuirassé.
R/ VOT/X/MVL/XX//LVDP
Légende en 4 lignes dans une couronne de lauriers fermée.
Silver
Comments :
Imitation d'époque. Exemplaire unique.
PAS (http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/287124)

This is not the same irregular because legend on observe : DN VALENTI-NIAVS PF AVG  (May be -NIANVS with ligature on N et V) , the second is DN VALENTI-NIANVS PF AVG

But the two engravers a probably the same (or the same mint) because the design of letters an profils.

Regards

SIliquae

Offline Siliquae

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2012, 03:12:48 pm »
Error :

This is not the same irregular because legend on observe : DN VALENTI-NIAVS PF AVG  (May be -NIANVS with ligature on N et V) , the second is DN VALENT-INIANVS PF AVG

Offline Siliquae

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Re: help identify siliqua
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 12:02:12 am »
And this is the same reverse.... ;D

Is that possible to find the same reverse of two so differents observes with ancien coin ? I'm not so sure. May be a modern fake ?

 

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