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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Webmasters (Moderator: Sorin Teodor)  |  Topic: Man-Faced Bull Site 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Man-Faced Bull Site  (Read 24955 times)
Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2014, 03:03:12 pm »

My new MFB Roman coin:



Crawford 1/1.
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Molinari
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2014, 03:10:31 pm »

It is fabulous!  I like it better than the NAC piece from the other thread.

I think you were too modest in your description earlier.  That is an awesomely attractive, super rare, highly desirable man-faced bull.  I love it.

Can you tell I'm excited for you? 
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2014, 03:26:48 pm »

It is fabulous!  I like it better than the NAC piece from the other thread.

I think you were too modest in your description earlier.  That is an awesomely attractive, super rare, highly desirable man-faced bull.  I love it.

Can you tell I'm excited for you?  

Yep  Wink
Given what it is, you'll note I didn't need to write a long explanatory note. Nothing beats 1/1. My photo is better than the sale pic, so I'm glad I waited to display. Very careful pre-purchase attention was paid to make sure it was the real thing, with untouched, albeit corroded, surfaces.

I'll be happy to help you guys dig out reference material for the type, so long as I'm not cited for anything I didn't research myself (i.e. anything, as I've not personally researched the issue).
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 03:30:17 pm »

Nice and interesting coin Andrew , congratulations.

Sam
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Sam Mansourati
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2014, 03:54:44 pm »



I'll be happy to help you guys dig out reference material for the type, so long as I'm not cited for anything I didn't research myself (i.e. anything, as I've not personally researched the issue).

Great, I'll at the very least ask you to look at what I've written.  But we are a ways off from that section at the moment (just collecting specimens now).  Probably this summer when our efforts are more focused on the catalog itself.

Your piece has nice eye appeal compared to others.  I like the Astarte one but, no inscription.  I think it is from the same reverse die as yours, no?

This one was cleaned well enough and I think does justice to the type!  I'll add it to the site soon. 
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2014, 04:05:33 pm »


Your piece has nice eye appeal compared to others.  I like the Astarte one but, no inscription.  I think it is from the same reverse die as yours, no?

Artemide 19.2E example I think you mean. Yes it looks like the same reverse die. The buyer of that piece will be very relieved that it die matches a Roman rather than the similar (but also very rare) Neapolitan type with 8 pointed star. I'd a hunch, from style, that the Artemide example was surely Roman as it didn't look like the Neapolitan 8 pointed star example, but this surely proves it. It's also of course good for me to see the die match, as until now I'd seen no sure reverse matches with the (few known) other Roman reverses that I've pictures of, though I know obverse matches between my coin and other Roman types. The Artemide match shows that my bull is as struck from the same die, thus can't for example be a (commoner, no-star) Neapolitan type heavily cut back and then corroded in disguise; in fact it supports both coins as being Roman
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2014, 05:06:49 pm »


Your piece has nice eye appeal compared to others.  I like the Astarte one but, no inscription.  I think it is from the same reverse die as yours, no?

Artemide 19.2E example I think you mean. Yes it looks like the same reverse die. The buyer of that piece will be very relieved that it die matches a Roman rather than the similar (but also very rare) Neapolitan type with 8 pointed star. I'd a hunch, from style, that the Artemide example was surely Roman as it didn't look like the Neapolitan 8 pointed star example, but this surely proves it. It's also of course good for me to see the die match, as until now I'd seen no sure reverse matches with the (few known) other Roman reverses that I've pictures of, though I know obverse matches between my coin and other Roman types. The Artemide match shows that my bull is as struck from the same die, thus can't for example be a (commoner, no-star) Neapolitan type heavily cut back and then corroded in disguise; in fact it supports both coins as being Roman

Yes, I meant the Artemide coin. I think the distance between the beard and the hoof is the best indicator it is Roman and not the 8 Star Neapolitan variety. Otherwise it might be a little more difficult to be absolutely sure, because of the differences in preservation and cleaning styles.  But yours is surely the real deal.
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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2014, 06:29:54 am »

A big thanks for your wonderful and informative thread, i had no idea until checking out your website Nick that MFB´s were so widespread. I will try and keep my eyes peeled for any coins that could be of interest to you.  Thumbs Up Wink

If i had to choose a favorite i would say the coins from Herbessos (Sicily), the style of these MFB´s are very appealing.
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2014, 06:36:44 am »

Added yours today, but first made ROME its own page, separate from Neapolis I & II.  This way it is easier to find:

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/rome/

Of the four listed of this type, I think I would choose yours if based on preservation and appeal alone.

What is the weight?

Thanks for letting us use it!

Nick

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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2014, 06:38:16 am »

A big thanks for your wonderful and informative thread, i had no idea until checking out your website Nick that MFB´s were so wide spread. I will try and keep my eyes peeled for any coins that could be of interest to you.  Thumbs Up Wink

If i had to choose a favorite i would say the coins from Herbessos (Sicily), the style of these MFB´s are very appealing.

Thanks for the compliment.  If you look at the silver and gold sites you'll see it is indeed very widespread!

I love the Herbessos pieces too.  Sadly, there are many very good forgeries of this type out there!
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2014, 07:45:46 am »

Added yours today, but first made ROME its own page, separate from Neapolis I & II.  This way it is easier to find:

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/rome/

Of the four listed of this type, I think I would choose yours if based on preservation and appeal alone.

What is the weight?

Thanks for letting us use it!

Nick



2.72 grams. Its a little lighter than average, I recall Crawford mentioned 3.67 grams or so, but in range given its thin flan and some surface corrosion. Compare the ACR sales pic and I think you'll see mine is a far better photo, showing for example the full extent of the star. It might be a rare example of a photo looking better than the coin in hand, given it has a completely black patina!  If you just click on my photo you go to the information page for that coin, which for example includes much larger images, click on the three dots at right and you get other size options. I've quite a few more examples in photo format. Some however may be private pics. In theory 1 is enough but perhaps it's nice to illustrate different styles.

The real challenge is to get a good pic of Crawford 2/1.
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2014, 07:52:05 am »

I'd appreciate any examples you have that you're willing to share, with whatever information you can provide about them. The more data the better. They wouldn't be put on the webpage or in the book unless we received permission from the copyright holder.  We will only illustrate the best one, but provide weight, etc. for the rest in the notes.

Nick
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2014, 09:30:06 am »

I'd appreciate any examples you have that you're willing to share, with whatever information you can provide about them. The more data the better. They wouldn't be put on the webpage or in the book unless we received permission from the copyright holder.  We will only illustrate the best one, but provide weight, etc. for the rest in the notes.
Nick

Below is a page of these coins, as an indication what and where to look for; as usual, thanks are due to Richard Schaefer a.k.a. Goodman. These photos are not, themselves, of website or print quality. The greyed out coin, ex Artemide XXVII, has no star and was returned by seller to the vendor, unconvinced that it hadn't been altered. I leave it there for record purposes, but it's best not included. The coin at top right, partially hidden, is the RBW example ex NAC61, which was illustrated earlier in this thread and which I think you have on your site. You also have the Artemide 19.2E coin (lower right) and the Russo coin (upper left, my photo). My coin is not on the page. Then there's a Vienna, a Naples, a DNW coin, a Noble coin, and two whose auction provenances I can't figure (YGH21? ST25? any guesses), and one half coin with unstated source. Not that many coins overall, how Crawford could deduce that there were 6 or 7 dies from that miserable sample I don't know, as he won't have had access to more. Re. photos, it's essentially impossible to get permission to use Naples material, but I suspect my coin has the same reverse die as Naples (and is much nicer of course!) based on comparing the lettering. Vienna should be easy enough, as should DNW and Noble.
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2014, 09:45:26 am »

Thank you, this is very helpful.  You've saved us hours upon hours!

Nick
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« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2014, 10:10:37 am »

The coin with the questionable source appears to be this one, from this blog:

http://brooklynsabbatical.wordpress.com/page/2/

The image is saved as AN00624561_001_m, and links to the British Museum!

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00624/AN00624561_001_m.jpg
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2014, 10:28:03 am »

Interesting about the British Museum coin but far far nor interesting is the Brooklyn Sabbatical blog. Who is it? Surely I must know him? Is he on Forum? He's writing specialist yet popular material about Roman Republican coins and this is the first I've seen it! Amazing stuff. Must read it ALL. The odd thing was that I've been planning on a very long sabbatical in New York too. We might be neighbours!
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« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2014, 10:30:34 am »

I thought so too, I can't wait to dig in.  Somewhere he links to my page but I haven't found where (that's how I located him).
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Taras
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2014, 12:14:33 pm »

I'd appreciate any examples you have that you're willing to share, with whatever information you can provide about them. The more data the better. They wouldn't be put on the webpage or in the book unless we received permission from the copyright holder.  We will only illustrate the best one, but provide weight, etc. for the rest in the notes.
Nick

Below is a page of these coins, as an indication what and where to look for; as usual, thanks are due to Richard Schaefer a.k.a. Goodman. These photos are not, themselves, of website or print quality. The greyed out coin, ex Artemide XXVII, has no star and was returned by seller to the vendor, unconvinced that it hadn't been altered. I leave it there for record purposes, but it's best not included. The coin at top right, partially hidden, is the RBW example ex NAC61, which was illustrated earlier in this thread and which I think you have on your site. You also have the Artemide 19.2E coin (lower right) and the Russo coin (upper left, my photo). My coin is not on the page. Then there's a Vienna, a Naples, a DNW coin, a Noble coin, and two whose auction provenances I can't figure (YGH21? ST25? any guesses), and one half coin with unstated source. Not that many coins overall, how Crawford could deduce that there were 6 or 7 dies from that miserable sample I don't know, as he won't have had access to more. Re. photos, it's essentially impossible to get permission to use Naples material, but I suspect my coin has the same reverse die as Naples (and is much nicer of course!) based on comparing the lettering. Vienna should be easy enough, as should DNW and Noble.

Thanks for help Andrew.
Smiley
Nico
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2014, 05:29:26 am »

Interesting about the British Museum coin but far far nor interesting is the Brooklyn Sabbatical blog. Who is it? Surely I must know him? Is he on Forum? He's writing specialist yet popular material about Roman Republican coins and this is the first I've seen it! Amazing stuff. Must read it ALL. The odd thing was that I've been planning on a very long sabbatical in New York too. We might be neighbours!

Once again, I must emphasise how really terrific this blog is:

http://brooklynsabbatical.wordpress.com/

Anyone who is remotely interested in either Roman Republican coinage or Magna Graecia coinage from the third century onwards (and that will include many Greek and Roman coin collectors) really needs to look at this blog. Amazing stuff, top level in terms of interest, research, choice of images, novel ideas etc.

There's an image from Head, Corolla Numismatica, of Crawford 2/1 MFB, which is a different image (same coin, different plaster cast, different photo) than used in Crawford RRC. I have Corolla Numismatica if a high quality image is needed in time.
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« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2014, 08:15:25 am »

Who is it? Surely I must know him? Is he on Forum?


"He" is a she.
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Victor Clark

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« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2014, 11:53:59 am »

Wow, great blog indeed!!
 Thumbs Up
I'd ask for a sabbatical just to read it all!  Grin
Thanks for sharing.
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Molinari
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2014, 02:26:05 pm »

Some new types for Agyrion, including a new unique type (MFB 18)!:

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/agyrion/

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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2014, 09:39:05 am »

Added the BnF example to the Rome section today.  It's quite nice and might be the same dies as yours, Andrew.

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/rome/

EDIT: It turns out the ST25 reference has something to do with the BM, because it is now in their collection (also added to site).

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« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2014, 10:30:38 am »

I think Crawford was right about the six or possibly seven dies:

Die 1: Andrew's new coin, Artemide 19,2E, BnF de Luynes

Die 2: 1st one listed on my website (i thought I got this from you, Andrew, but can't find any info on it)

Die 3: NAC coin in this thread

Die 4: Triton IX, 1252 ( NAC, Auction 61, Lot 61*)

Die 5: BMC coin from Brooklyn Sabatical blog (http://manfacedbulls.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/an00624561_001_l.jpg)

Die 6: DNW; Naples;BMC ST25; Wien KHM GR1.0149; YGH 21; Noble(?)

Die 7: Noble?...maybe same as Die 6.
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2014, 04:02:50 pm »

Taras just found this amazing specimen.  A man-faced bull countermark on a bronze from Akragas!  And the countermark appears to say GELAS, and is clearly of Gelaian style.

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/uncertain-2/

Weight 19,03g; size of countemark: 17,5mm; Reference: G. Santelli, A. Campana; Le prime contromarche siciliane su bronzo. Pag. 37 Monete Antiche anno VII, n.38, Marzo/Aprile 2008

We are very, very excited about this!
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