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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Webmasters (Moderator: Sorin Teodor)  |  Topic: Man-Faced Bull Site 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Man-Faced Bull Site  (Read 24916 times)
Meepzorp
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« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2014, 03:15:46 am »

An exciting new bronze variety, unpublished, attributed to Alaisa Katane by Lamoneta user acraf!!!

17.5mm, 4.68g

http://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/alaisa-katane/



Hi Nick,

That's a very interesting coin. It even has a dolphin above the MFB, possibly reinforcing the fact that the MFB is a river-god. It has 2 symbols on the reverse that both reference the same thing (water).

That is very unusual for Katane.

It must have difficult to attribute because I don't see an inscription, and it not something you'd expect to see from Katane.

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Molinari
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« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2014, 04:57:44 am »

Alaisa Katane would be distinct from Katane and not an official issue from the mint there. 
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Molinari
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« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2014, 05:05:22 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on September 30, 2014, 03:07:30 am

Whatever happened with this coin's mint uncertainty? Was it ever resolved? Is it really a Sicilian coin?

Meepzorp

Not resolved yet.  I attach another "uncertain Sicilian issue" from the BnF.

Without the original authors providing a rationale, I'm inclined to think these are Campanian coins that were found in Sicily.
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Meepzorp
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« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2014, 06:30:28 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on September 30, 2014, 03:07:30 am

Whatever happened with this coin's mint uncertainty? Was it ever resolved? Is it really a Sicilian coin?

Meepzorp

Not resolved yet.  I attach another "uncertain Sicilian issue" from the BnF.

Without the original authors providing a rationale, I'm inclined to think these are Campanian coins that were found in Sicily.

Hi Nick,

I agree, especially considering that Campanian mercenaries often traveled to Sicily.

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Meepzorp
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« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2014, 06:35:51 am »

Alaisa Katane would be distinct from Katane and not an official issue from the mint there. 

Hi Nick,

Thanks for pointing that out.

Is Alaisa Katane the same as Alaisa?

An AE coin with a horse and griffin is often attributed (without 100% certainty) to Alaisa and/or Kainon. I have one. Is that the same Alaisa as Alaisa Katane?

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Molinari
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« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2014, 12:32:16 pm »

There were, I believe, possibly three separate Alaisas in Sicily, two on mount Etna.  However, one is from Buceti and I'm not sure if Campana has re-attributed his (Buceti's) original "Alaisa" coins to Alaisa Katane or just the new one.  With an identical reverse I think he's re-attributed them all to Alaisa Katane but I'm not yet entirely sure (Nico, please chime in, if you can).  Apparently, "alaisa" comes from the Greek word "to wander/wanderer" and these towns were named after wandering mercenaries who found a place to settle.
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Molinari
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« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2014, 05:00:37 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on September 30, 2014, 06:35:51 am
Alaisa Katane would be distinct from Katane and not an official issue from the mint there. 

Hi Nick,

Thanks for pointing that out.

Is Alaisa Katane the same as Alaisa?

An AE coin with a horse and griffin is often attributed (without 100% certainty) to Alaisa and/or Kainon. I have one. Is that the same Alaisa as Alaisa Katane?

Meepzorp

I think that attribution is for Alaisa Archonidea, which you can read about here:

http://logeion.uchicago.edu/index.html#alaesa

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Arados
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« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2014, 05:23:03 am »

Hello Nick,

I finally payed a visit with Lee S to the kungliga myntkabinettet (coin exibition) in stockholm, well worth the $9 entrance fee. I can highly recommend it to anybody visiting Stockholm, we spent three hours wondering around this facinating collection. I am pretty sure there will be more images uploaded in the near future, here are a couple of MFBs i thought you might be interested in seeing. Sorry for the bad quality, it wasn´t easy photographing the coins through the protective glass and with the dull display lighting.

Enjoy  Wink

All the best
Martin

P.S The first image is Gela but i´m not too sure of the other coins.
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Molinari
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« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2014, 06:40:29 am »

Thanks for posting these, Martin.  The top coin is a tetradrachm from Gela, the second coin is a didrachm, also from Gela, and the bottom coin is a nomos from Neapolis
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Molinari
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« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2014, 07:24:43 am »

While we have not yet breached China, the cult of man-faced bull enthusiasts is spreading, as seen in the attached image supplied by Wordpress!

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Molinari
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« Reply #110 on: December 08, 2014, 09:01:58 am »

Shannon found this awesome coin, which shows the (winged?) MFB beneath a throne, a tradition dating back in the Near East some two thousand years earlier!

378-372 BC, Tarsos, Cilicia, Silber, 10,15 g, 22 mm, ANS Museum Notes 31, 1986, 60 Nr. 17a Taf. 5. (Berlin Museum)

http://manfacedbullsar.wordpress.com/cilicia/
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« Reply #111 on: December 10, 2014, 04:36:55 am »

Hi Nick,

Are you (and/or the experts) sure it is a winged MFB?

To me, it looks more like a sphinx. But that is from looking at just this one coin. There may or may not be other examples of this coin out there where it looks more like a MFB.

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Molinari
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« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2014, 05:20:15 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on December 10, 2014, 04:36:55 am
Hi Nick,

Are you (and/or the experts) sure it is a winged MFB?

To me, it looks more like a sphinx. But that is from looking at just this one coin. There may or may not be other examples of this coin out there where it looks more like a MFB.

Meepzorp

There are many coins with the Sphinx beside the throne, too.  This one I'm not sure about, but it reminded me of the attached coin, described as a winged man-headed bull.  The figure beneath the throne, as opposed to in pairs on its sides, also indicated winged MFB to me.

Sometimes such figures are essentially chimeras, mixing many different human and animal parts.  So it could be a winged man-faced bull with lion's paws, for instance.  We even have examples of winged man-faced bulls with fish scales!

DYNASTS of LYCIA. Kherei. Circa 410-390 BC. AR Stater (8.61 gm). Uncertain mint. Helmeted head of Athena right, wearing crested Attic helmet decorated with three olive leaves and spiral / Forepart of a winged man-headed bull right; all within incuse square. Mørkholm & Zahle II -; Falghera -; Traité -; BMC Lycia -; SNG Copenhagen Suppl. 453 (same dies); SNG von Aulock -.  
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« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2014, 05:43:38 pm »

At what point would you decide it is something different (symbolically at least) entirely?

I think of the blue tiled gates from Babylon or Nineveh (or ??) that have the "mfb+wings"
at the British Museum.
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Molinari
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« Reply #114 on: December 10, 2014, 06:13:16 pm »

The Greek man-faced bull's origins are in the Near Eastern man-faced bulls and winged man-faced bulls, among others.  In the Near East the iconographies were used interchangeably in some cases.  The Greek MFB tradition absorbs the mythology surrounding both figures, but it's a long story not quite ready to be told Wink

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« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2014, 07:48:28 pm »

my bad, I think I was thinking about the balawat gates which is a human headed, winged _lion_.
But I'll look forward to the story time.  Do you have any expectation of when the book will be out?

I would like to see the mfb sites listed by region, as well as alphabetically.  Maybe the traditional, clockwise
around the Mediterranean.  I think it is easier to imagine the influences when you put Hyrina with Neapolis and Nola.
I don't mean anything really complicated, just like a togle switch that one way gives alphabetic, push the button and the list reorders into geographical.  That is just my two cents. Smiley
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Molinari
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« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2014, 06:13:13 am »

my bad, I think I was thinking about the balawat gates which is a human headed, winged _lion_.
But I'll look forward to the story time.  Do you have any expectation of when the book will be out?

I would like to see the mfb sites listed by region, as well as alphabetically.  Maybe the traditional, clockwise
around the Mediterranean.  I think it is easier to imagine the influences when you put Hyrina with Neapolis and Nola.
I don't mean anything really complicated, just like a togle switch that one way gives alphabetic, push the button and the list reorders into geographical.  That is just my two cents. Smiley

No problem.  Our anticipated date of publication is late 2015, but a lot of that depends on what the peer reviewers say (all have been very good and encouraging so far) and if we run into any roadblocks securing image rights (non-numismatics) or producing line-drawings.  But I am optimistic that we will meet the deadline!
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« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2014, 06:16:15 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on December 10, 2014, 04:36:55 am
Hi Nick,

Are you (and/or the experts) sure it is a winged MFB?

To me, it looks more like a sphinx. But that is from looking at just this one coin. There may or may not be other examples of this coin out there where it looks more like a MFB.

Meepzorp

There are many coins with the Sphinx beside the throne, too.  This one I'm not sure about, but it reminded me of the attached coin, described as a winged man-headed bull.  The figure beneath the throne, as opposed to in pairs on its sides, also indicated winged MFB to me.

Sometimes such figures are essentially chimeras, mixing many different human and animal parts.  So it could be a winged man-faced bull with lion's paws, for instance.  

Hi Nick,

That makes sense. They do look like lion's paws to me.

Meepzorp
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Meepzorp
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« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2014, 06:20:06 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on December 10, 2014, 04:36:55 am
Hi Nick,

Are you (and/or the experts) sure it is a winged MFB?

To me, it looks more like a sphinx. But that is from looking at just this one coin. There may or may not be other examples of this coin out there where it looks more like a MFB.

Meepzorp
We even have examples of winged man-faced bulls with fish scales!

Hi Nick,

This makes sense too. After all, the MFB is a river-god.

Is it possible that the earlier versions of the MFB had fish scales? And, over time, they lost their scales?

Meepzorp
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Molinari
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« Reply #119 on: December 11, 2014, 06:21:19 am »

I would like to see the mfb sites listed by region, as well as alphabetically.  Maybe the traditional, clockwise
around the Mediterranean.  I think it is easier to imagine the influences when you put Hyrina with Neapolis and Nola.
I don't mean anything really complicated, just like a togle switch that one way gives alphabetic, push the button and the list reorders into geographical.  That is just my two cents. Smiley

I will try to incorporate this feature at some point, but I'm not very good at website construction.  Wordpress makes basic layout very easy, but your suggestion (which is good) sounds like an advanced trick!
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Molinari
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« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2014, 06:23:28 am »

Quote from: Meepzorp on December 11, 2014, 06:20:06 am
Quote from: Meepzorp on December 10, 2014, 04:36:55 am
Hi Nick,

Are you (and/or the experts) sure it is a winged MFB?

To me, it looks more like a sphinx. But that is from looking at just this one coin. There may or may not be other examples of this coin out there where it looks more like a MFB.

Meepzorp
We even have examples of winged man-faced bulls with fish scales!

Hi Nick,

This makes sense too. After all, the MFB is a river-god.

Is it possible that the earlier versions of the MFB had fish scales? And, over time, they lost their scales?

Meepzorp

We have found no true man-faced bulls with fish scales to date, in any culture. If there are any, perhaps they appear in Near Eastern art, but I've never seen one. 
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nummis durensis
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« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2014, 07:25:05 am »

SICILY
Eryx
Punic Occupation
Ca. 400-380 BC
AR Litra
Av.: Male head left
Rev.: Bull (?) standing left, Punic 'Ark above
0,54 Gr.
Jenkins I pl. 24, 24; SNG ANS 1348; SNG Copenhagen -, HGC 2, 324 (R2)


SNG ANS describes the reverse figure as a cow, whereas Oliver Hoover describes it as a man-faced bull. CNG uses "river god" for its description, based off of Jenkins, and understand "river god" to mean a man-faced bull.

What do YOU think?

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Molinari
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« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2014, 08:02:25 am »


"SNG ANS describes the reverse figure as a cow, whereas Oliver Hoover describes it as a man-faced bull. CNG uses "river god" for its description, based off of Jenkins, and understand "river god" to mean a man-faced bull."

What do YOU think?



You have already quoted me Wink

It is a cow, indicated by the very clear example from the Tony Hardy collection.  Your coin is very rare.  I attach mine and then the Hardy coin.

I should mention Hoover might accidentally be describing a totally different coin, since his write up does not match the coin he depicts (he says Male head left, etc.).  I'll have to ask him if he knows of a true MFB from Eryx.  I have found none.
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« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2014, 08:32:46 am »

Thank you.. seems all from the same dies?!

Seems a cow and not a bull or a river-god.

At the german numismatic forum I have written some about Erice, this wonderful city:

http://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=51525

regards,
Rainer
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JBF
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« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2014, 05:43:17 pm »

Molinari,
When I say "reorder," that can also just mean another page where all the places are by region and that you can click on something to bring up that page.  I think even just a regional list with the mfb poleis in each region, not necessarily even something to click on to get to the coins themselves, could be interesting.  Of course, I am a little biased on this topic, as the Herder of the mfb, you know what the topic needs better than I do.
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