Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus  (Read 1635 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline helvetica

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • Helvetia Libera Deo Gratia
    • ID Help pages + RIC lists + www.wildwinds.com
Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« on: October 29, 2011, 11:33:25 am »
Hi all,
I just received this coin image from the owner who needed
assistance in ID-ing it.
AE38, 25,1 gr.
AV KA M ANTWNHINOC (sic), laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right.
EFECI-WN NEOKORWN KE, OMONOIA below, two temples seen in perspective, one containing the cult image of Artemis Leukophryene,
the other containing the cult image of Artemis Ephesia.

In my opinion it is not an official issue for the following
reasons:
1. The H in the obverse legend is illogical and would make the
name sound peculiar.
2. It is a coin of Ephesos, Ionia which struck coins to commemorate their Homonoia with several other other cities in Ionia. Only two cities in Ionia had strong ties to Artemis in this type of her form - Magnesia and Ephesus (where the famous Artemesion was), and Ephesos. A coin is known of this type for Caracalla, with the same obverse, BUT with the name of Magnesia (MAGNHTWN KE EFECIWN OMONOIA) instead of the title NEOKORWN on the reverse. Same size and weight and same basic reverse die by the look of it:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/caracalla/_magnesia_Schultz_169.jpg
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/caracalla/_magnesia_Schultz_169.txt

3. The main reason why I believe this is not an official issue, is that there is no name of the coin with whom Ephesos is supposed to be in Homonoia with. Without the OMONOIA it could refer just to the two temples of Artemis in Ephesos, but to have OMONOIA without naming the second town, would surely have been absolutely unheard of and a terrible insult to the second town. The name of the second town of the Homonoia was ALWAYS mentioned in the legend and not even the megalomaniac Caracalla would have dared to have it left out.
All this would lead me to believe that this is either an ancient forgery or the die had for some reason been recut to remove the name of Magnesia, but the person who did it did not realise the significance of the OMONOIA part.
Some of the letters on the left of the reverse are smaller than the others and appear to have been made to fit the actual coin, not the original die (if you complete the circle of dots on the left and add the letters with the same distancing as the other letters, you will see that these letters are not quite where they should be).
The coin as it is, with this reverse legend is not listed in BMC, Schultze, Fritze, SNG Cop, Head, von Aulock, Mionnet, Traité, Imhoof, Lindgren, SNG München, SNG Tübingen, Isegrim, etc.

Do you agree ?

Offline commodus

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Deceased Member
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 3291
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2011, 12:33:03 pm »
Your argument that it may be an ancient forgery makes sense, Helvetica.
Comparing the photo to other examples, I don't think it is a modern fake and, therefore, perhaps this thread belongs under Roman Provincial coinage. However, I will be interested to hear what others think.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline Pekka K

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 7336
  • ...one coin at a time...
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2011, 12:51:37 pm »

To me it looks like tooled. This would explain
both reverse and obverse legend errors.

Pekka K

Offline Akropolis

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2762
    • Akropolis Ancient Coins
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2011, 01:42:26 pm »
Also, the Wildwinds image is clearly Caracalla. This obverse image on this coin looks to me more like Elagabalus, but....
Another "pure speculation,": the "tooling" may have been done to the die in ancient times, which may signal the dissolution of OMONIA with Magnesia. and the die cutter delivering a "damnatio" of Magnesia by replacing their name with NOEKOPΩN. Again, pure speculation.
PeteB

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2011, 02:08:22 pm »
Either a modern fake or modern tooling in my opinion.
Andreas Reich

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2011, 11:55:19 am »
My money is on modern concoction / fake as well.

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Barabus

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 348
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2011, 01:32:11 pm »
 I believe it to be an ancient counterfiet and I'm having a hard time seeing any tooling.
Organized religion is the second oldest profession, and nowhere near as honest as the first.

Offline dougsmit

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 2126
    • Ancient Greek & Roman Coins
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 10:34:18 pm »
I read what you saw as ANTWNHINOC (sic) as ANTWNEINOC which is a frequently used spelling of the name.  I'm not going so far as to say the coin is old or new but I believe the H for E is not clear enough to call it a problem.  If I owned the coin I would not be willing to dismiss it and would love to think it might be a die alteration.  The best of all answers would come with the finding of a die duplicate before the recut.  Dream on.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 09:01:30 am »
I think it is great spotting by Helvetica, to have compared this item with the
apparent prototype for this piece being from Helios 5, lot 730 (June 2010 - NOT
2011! [as per the above Wildwinds link]).



Compare the hair of the bust, and you will see some quite unnatural lines
within the hair that are probably tooled, or at least concocted/contrived.

The centering of both pieces is almost identical but there are many features
that have been copied, but not copied with any proficiency.

Notice also, that there are two faint lines within the steps that apparently
depict some sort of walkway or corner edge on the original, but have been
all but obliterated on the above specimen. There are traces, but they seem
to have been overlooked and partially smoothed out.

Note also the border of dots in relation to the legends. They are in an almost
identical position but poorly executed when compared to the original. The idea
was on the right track, but the result failed on several levels.

The EXTREME legend error, when compared to the original, is perhaps the
most egregious failing and one which probably condemns the most. Naturally
the best way to confirm is with the item in hand, but as I am quite familiar with
the prototype I am equally as certain about this present piece.

I find it impossible to believe that we just happen to have both the copy AND
the prototype at hand within close proximity. Because of all of this, I believe
that there is no doubt that the item is both modern and fake.

A better and clearer detailed image of the obverse will, I have little doubt,
reveal said tooling to the hair and other features. Of course, I will also be
the first to eat my words if I am wrong. I'd love to see the item in hand.

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 10:16:00 am »
How many ancient imitations or forgeries has anybody seen here, let's say of (large) Provincials from Ephesos?
Walter should know best, I don't recall a single one. An imitation to counter a shortage of coinage makes little sense and a forgery to earn money not much more.
Andreas Reich

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 08:01:22 am »
Andreas,

Sorry, I haven't been online for a while and did not see your message before now.

There is at least one large bronze of Ephesus that has been forged and copied many
times, and even has appeared in many of the world's most important collections.

I have sought out the original from which it may have been copied, so far without
success, though my search has not been exhaustive (mostly due to my being down
here in Australia, and Europe being so far away - anyone over there want to put me
up for a couple of years? :) hehe).

Should you have a copy of SNG Copenhagen nearby, it is number 444.

Another may be found via the SNG UK Site:
http://www.s110120695.websitehome.co.uk/PHP/SNG_PHP/04_03_Reply.php?Series=SNGuk&AccessionNo=1201_1719_False

There are many others around the world and I have been able to identify several of
them for the various curators, etc., as being equivalent copies identical to Cop.444.

I expect that this is a copy from the 18th or 19th century from a yet to be determined
prototype, along the lines of the BM electrotypes, or perhaps a grand tour souvenir.

There have been a small number of other large bronzes, but most are one-off individual
items, and fortunately most are rather easy to determine as false. They are almost all
modern, and meant only to deceive or add a false value. I have a couple.

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: FAKE Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus - AGAIN!
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 03:27:14 am »
This clear and obvious FAKE has reared its ugly head once again!

It was withdrawn from the Ponterio/Stacks auction in August because it was a fake, and
now the poor people at MA-Shops, Munz-Zentrum (Heinz-W. Müller) have been burdened
with it by the owner. When will he/she learn - IT IS A FAKE! NOT ANCIENT!
Continuing to offer this item to dealers and collectors as genuine is borderline FRAUD!

Here is the item again:
http://www.ma-shops.de/muenzzentrum2/item.php5?id=208&lang=en
If anyone knows Herr Müller then they may wish to advise him of this discussion topic.
What he does with this information will be up to him.

I also hope that the owner will eventually get the message, start being honest, and
retire this item to a black museum - forever!

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Caracalla Ephesos Neokorus
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 07:13:30 am »
Fake coin report please. 
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity