Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Please look at the RECENT ADDITIONS and PRICE REDUCTIONS at the top and bottom of the page. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Point your mouse to a coin in RECENT ADDITIONS or PRICE REDUCTIONS on this page to see the the price. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numism  |  Reading For the Advanced Collector  |  Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii  (Read 45820 times)
Lucas H
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 640



WWW
« on: April 04, 2011, 03:07:25 pm »

Is there a web resource where I can learn more about Antony's Legionary denarii?  How many legions did he command or mint coins for?  Are some more desirable than others based on the history of the legion?  I'm in negotiations to buy a denarius of the Fourth legion.  Any interesting history about that legion?
Logged

Bud Stewart
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 577



« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 05:48:06 pm »

David Sear states that twenty-three legions (LEG PR1 to LEG XXIII) were honored on Antony's Denarii.  The Praetorian Chorts & "Cohort of Speculatores" were also honored.  According to Sear LEG PRI is a "great rarity".  Source Roman Coins and Their Values – The Millennium Edition – Volume One – Page 284.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 07:33:35 pm »

Is there a web resource where I can learn more about Antony's Legionary denarii?  How many legions did he command or mint coins for?  Are some more desirable than others based on the history of the legion?  I'm in negotiations to buy a denarius of the Fourth legion.  Any interesting history about that legion?

Here is some information on late Republican Legions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_legions#Late_Republican_legions

Each legion in turn has its own home page. So you can look up your legion. Here is Legion Four:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IV_Scythica

Legio IV Scythica was levied by Mark Antony around 42 BC, for his campaign against the Parthian Empire, hence its other cognomen, Parthica. The legion was still active in Syria in the early 5th century. The legion's symbol was a capricorn. In its first years, the whereabouts of IV Scythica are uncertain, although it is probable that it took part in Antony's campaign against the Parthians. The name suggests that it fought against the Scythians. After the battle of Actium and Antony's suicide, Octavian transferred IIII Scythica to the Danube province of Moesia. The legion is reported to have taken part in civilian tasks, such as the building and keeping of roads. In his youth, future emperor Vespasian served in this legion.

As to rarity / commonness of the coins, the best guide is Roman Silver Coins prices, which distill the wisdom of thousands of numismatists over the ages. All the varieties can be regarded as COMMON with the following EXCEPTIONS

LEG PRI extremely rare, may not be genuine
LEG IIX extremely rare (missing from my collection)
LEG VIIII scarce
LEG XII ANTIQVAE common but much sought after
LEG XIIII scarce
LEG XVII CLASSICAE common but much sought after
LEG XVIII scarce
LEG XVIII LYBICAE scarce
LEG XVIIII very rare (missing from my collection)
LEG XXIII scarce and much sought after

The Praetorian Cohorts and the Speculatores types are a little scarce.

Most people know that XXIII is a tough legion to get. It is less well known that XVIIII (long form of 19) is genuinely rare. XIX is of course common.

My legionaries are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/sets/72157615998395021/detail/

And pictured in the screen-shot below (apologies for the poor quality, it is literally a screen shot - I will make up a better version in time).

A nice post of some decent legionaries can also be found here:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=8078.0
Logged

Bud Stewart
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 577



« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 08:08:31 pm »

Andrew, thanks for the information and the URL’s. 

I acquired my first Antony Denarius just last week (Leg XIII)

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-65855

and your information makes my new specimen even more enjoyable.
Logged

curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 10889



« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 08:32:39 pm »

Specimen counts from large hoards are usually very good indices of relative rarity.

For Antony's legionary denarii, the following quantities were contained in the Delos Hoard of 1905, according to Revue Num. 2003:

CHOR PRAET 6
XII ANTIQVAE 5
XVII CLASSICAE 8
XVIII LYBICAE 4
CHOR SPECVL 9
PRI None
II 40
III 25
IIII None
IV 28
V 37
VI 36
VII 27
VIII 27
IIX not in Crawford, none in hoard. Andrew, how do we know of this piece?
VIIII 15
IX 20
X 28
XI 24
XII 28
XIII 20
XIIII 6
XIV 12
XV 39
XVI 24
XVII 22
XVIII 6
XVIIII None
XIX 16
XX 13
XXI 23
XXII 15
XXIII 24

So the real rarities are PRI, IIII (Andrew, why not in your list?), IIX, and XVIIII.

Scarce are the two Cohort pieces and all with epithets, plus XIIII and XVIII. Andrew says some of these are common, but that impression is probably merely created by the fact that they are particularly sought after and sell for a premium, so preferentially make their way into collections and are offered by dealers.

Commonest are apparently II, V, VI, and XV. VI was the one Marcus and Verus chose to restore during their joint reign, doubtless in connection with a withdrawal and recoining operation. Probably that was the reason, its commonness, rather than any particular merit or imperial preference for that legion.
Logged

Curtis Clay
ickster
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 393



« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 08:54:14 pm »

In another display of my ignorance, I'm wondering if there is a reason behind those with named (epithets, as Mr. Clay described it) and those with only the LEG # at the bottom reverse? Is one an earlier version?

E
Logged
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 03:31:43 am »

Specimen counts from large hoards are usually very good indices of relative rarity.

For Antony's legionary denarii, the following quantities were contained in the Delos Hoard of 1905, according to Revue Num. 2003:

...
IIX not in Crawford, none in hoard. Andrew, how do we know of this piece?
...
So the real rarities are PRI, IIII (Andrew, why not in your list?), IIX, and XVIIII.
...
Scarce are the two Cohort pieces and all with epithets, plus XIIII and XVIII. Andrew says some of these are common, but that impression is probably merely created by the fact that they are particularly sought after and sell for a premium, so preferentially make their way into collections and are offered by dealers.

Commonest are apparently II, V, VI, and XV.

Curtis,

Very useful hoard list. As I noted I based my list just on RSC prices. Oddly RSC notes IIII as a "cheapie" - unlike XVIIII - so I didn't include it in my list of rarer coins. Happily I have an IIII in my collection.

I indeed had the impression the cohorts and named legions were commoner as they always seem to be for sale albeit at lower condition and at their premium pricing. There's a commercial filter acting that brings them to the top.

Several IIX are known, there was one at public auction about 5 years ago, I myself noted and bid on a different eBay example about 10 years ago (in the very early years of ebay), misdescribed as an IX but plainly not, the German ebay seller rejected my international bid (it was in the era before universally simple bank transfers) and it sold for 110 euros. Unfortunately I didn't grab a photo. I recall a third example cropped up too. Sounds vague, but I'm sure the type exists.

My instinctive sense of the most common ones - II, V, VI, XV - is borne out by the hoard list, but I'd never seen them listed as such. X, XI, XII seem to crop up an awful lot in the market as does XVI. I wonder could an updated assessment be produced by analysing internet sales.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 03:37:36 am »


Several IIX are known, there was one at public auction about 5 years ago, I myself noted and bid on a different eBay example about 10 years ago (in the very early years of ebay), misdescribed as an IX but plainly not, the German ebay seller rejected my international bid (it was in the era before universally simple bank transfers) and it sold for 110 euros. Unfortunately I didn't grab a photo. I recall a third example cropped up too. Sounds vague, but I'm sure the type exists.


Below is the "public auction" IIX I cited, NAC45, 2008. As it came via HjB to NAC I'm guessing Curtis may have handled it. It says "second known". As noted above I'm aware of a third example but without a record.
Logged

Lucas H
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 640



WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 06:36:26 am »

As always thanks for all the excellent information. 
Quote
Legio IV Scythica

The seller of my coin indicated it was Legio Quarta, Macedonica, and was disbanded by Vespasian because of it's support of Vitellius in the Civil War.  Is there a way to tell the difference between coins of Legio IV, Scythica, and Legio IV, Macedonica?
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 07:02:00 am »

It's Scythica.  From my own example I have these notes:

In its first years, the whereabouts of IV Scythica are uncertain, although it is probable that it took part in Antony's campaign against the Parthians. The name suggests that it fought against the Scythians. After the battle of Actium and Antony's suicide, Octavian transferred IV Scythica to the Danube province of Moesia. The legion is reported to have taken part in civilian tasks, such as the building and keeping of roads. In his youth, future emperor Vespasian served in this legion.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-42320

We have to be careful because some legions were disbanded or incorporated into Octavian's Legions after Actium.


I have one of the scarcer VIIII Legion's as well, although not in great shape.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-63947

Plus a few of the named legions including a LEGIO COHORTIS SPECULATORVM

All my Antony's are here:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1822


Curtis, Andrew those are great lists, I've been looking for something like that.  I wonder if it is possible to determine how many legionaries were in each legion by the amount of coins that survive.  Not all of Antony's legions would have been at full strength.  Then again after Actium many were discharged and settled throughout the provinces so it might be a stretch.
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
benito
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2662


quousque tandem abutere Sadigh pecunia nostra


« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 08:01:08 am »

There were two Legion IV. The scythica and the macedonica.The first levied by M.Antony,the second by Caesar ( always sided with Octavian).
At Actium you can also find two Legion VI.etc...atc...
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 08:05:51 am »

As always thanks for all the excellent information. 
Quote
Legio IV Scythica

The seller of my coin indicated it was Legio Quarta, Macedonica, and was disbanded by Vespasian because of it's support of Vitellius in the Civil War.  Is there a way to tell the difference between coins of Legio IV, Scythica, and Legio IV, Macedonica?

If you reviewed the Legion list that I linked to, you'll see that "Legion IV Scythica" was a legion of Mark Antony and "Legion IV Macedonia" was a legion of Octavian.

I leave you to guess which of these legions the "Mark Antony Legion IV Denarius" commemorated!
Logged

curtislclay
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 10889



« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 08:06:59 am »

Below is the "public auction" IIX I cited, NAC45, 2008. As it came via HjB to NAC I'm guessing Curtis may have handled it. It says "second known". As noted above I'm aware of a third example but without a record.

Thanks for the reference and image.

On looking again, I find that I had already written this piece into my copy of Crawford on the authority of your reference to it on Forvm in July 2010!
Logged

Curtis Clay
Lucas H
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 640



WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 08:09:40 am »

Quote
If you reviewed the Legion list that I linked to, you'll see that "Legion IV Scythica" was a legion of Mark Antony and "Legion IV Macedonia" was a legion of Octavian.  I leave you to guess which of these legions the "Mark Antony Legion IV Denarius" commemorated!

Ok, now I'm blushing, but at least I know the answer. 
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 08:20:59 am »


Ok, now I'm blushing, but at least I know the answer. 

 Smiley

Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 08:27:51 am »

Below is the "public auction" IIX I cited, NAC45, 2008. As it came via HjB to NAC I'm guessing Curtis may have handled it. It says "second known". As noted above I'm aware of a third example but without a record.

Thanks for the reference and image.

On looking again, I find that I had already written this piece into my copy of Crawford on the authority of your reference to it on Forvm in July 2010!


I've been kicking myself for years about that eBay specimen. Firstly, by not offering the seller a knockout price (500 euros or so) via a note written in German language for the sake of allowing me to buy it, or at least bid on it. Secondly, by not taking a screen print of the coin. Computer speeds and my general dexterity with image handling was pretty basic at the time, maybe in 2002 or 2003. Perhaps I did save it to whatever ancient computer I owned at the time but I no longer have it.
Logged

Dk0311USMC
Conservator
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 359



WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 07:37:36 pm »

Weren't some of these legions never actually commanded by Antony himself, such as legions originally raised by Octavian?  That is the only question I have about some of these Antony legionary denarii.

I guess I have two questions actually.  Was it then Antony's choice to pay the legions with this particular coin type?  I guess I'm mainly asking what makes them "Antony's" legionary Denarii?
Logged

Dk0311USMC
Conservator
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 359



WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 07:56:49 pm »

I guess now after doing more reading, some legions I thought that were not commanded by Antony, were actually different legions with the same numbers.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 08:19:51 pm »



I guess I have two questions actually.  Was it then Antony's choice to pay the legions with this particular coin type?  I guess I'm mainly asking what makes them "Antony's" legionary Denarii?

Well his name and titles are on them for one thing: ANT AVG III VIR R P C
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Eduard
Guest
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 04:31:32 am »

This is a very interesting discussion, as I also have an interest in legionary coinage, and their history.

Lucas H, I hope you don't mind if I ask these question in this thread.

My first question is related to the legions which were annihilated in the Varus campaign in northern germany in 9 A.D, the XVII, XVIII and XIX legions. Were these the same legions which fought under Marcus Antonius, and which later went on to be stationed in Germany?
Also, to what extent can one consider that each legions coinage was used (exclusively?) by that one legion.  I bought a Leg. XIX denarius hoping to have a memento of one of the 3 legions lost by Varus, hoping that this would be the case.

My second question is a simple one: Antonius Legionary denarii appear, as a whole, much more plentiful than those of Septimius Severus. Is this actually the case?

Thank you in advance for your answers,

Eduard     
Logged
PeterD
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1441


omnium curiositatum explorator


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2012, 06:03:06 am »

There is a good description of Antony's legionary coinage in David Sear's 'The History and Coinage of the Roman Imperators 49-27 BC'.

We have to remember that Antony and Octavian were at war. Octavian blocked Antony's ability to recruit soldiers from Italy even though he was legally entitled to do so. And of course he could not send to Rome for cash to pay his legions. He therefore had to mint his own, taking the opportunity to honour his legions and navy at the same time. Antony was camped in Greece at the time, so it is believed that his coinage was minted at his HQ at Patrae near the mouth of the Gulf of Corinth in 32 BC.

Sear describes the volume of this coinage as 'truly prodigious'. Because it was somewhat de-based it was never removed from circulation for melting and consquently remained in circulation for two and a half centuries.

After his defeat at Actium, some of Antony's legions were disbanded and some were incorporated into Octavian's legions. This gave rise to the name 'Gemini' (twin) for some legions.
Logged

Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context http://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia
Lucas H
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 640



WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2012, 06:50:32 am »

Quote
There is a good description of Antony's legionary coinage in David Sear's 'The History and Coinage of the Roman Imperators 49-27 BC'

Excellent to know.  Santa brought me Sear's History and Coinage of the Imperators for Christmas, but I have not started it yet.  I swear I ordered it from Joe, but it never came even though the Forum showed it as shipped, but Santa had it all wrapped up under the tree on Christmas morning in the paper I swear I saw my wife using earlier in the month.  Makes one wonder.  Huh
Logged

Dk0311USMC
Conservator
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 359



WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2012, 11:51:19 am »



I guess I have two questions actually.  Was it then Antony's choice to pay the legions with this particular coin type?  I guess I'm mainly asking what makes them "Antony's" legionary Denarii?

Well his name and titles are on them for one thing: ANT AVG III VIR R P C

Apparently I looked over the obvious!   What started my line of questioning is when I was looking up different legions and didn't see any ties to Antony in them, but as I later saw, those were entirely different legions separate from the ones depicted on his coins.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2012, 12:32:22 pm »

There are some very interesting developments with the legions between Antony and Octavian.  I've tried to do a write up of each Antonian legion under my coins.  LEG X is probably one of the best documented since we know discharge and recruitment dates, where they were settled and where they served.  See here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1822&pos=26

Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2012, 08:38:54 pm »

Some time ago Curtis Clay provided us with the following data for Antony's legionary denarii, which shows the quantities contained in the Delos Hoard of 1905, according to Revue Num. 2003. I recently eBayed a reasonable example (flat strike, but very clear number) of one of the real rarities: LEG IIII. IIII is a first-degree rarity, at the same level as PRI(?if exists), IIX ( 8 ) and XVIIII (19), all the others having odd-ball number formats. All these are also missing from RBW-NAC63. I've actually seen two examples of IIX (one on eBay, pre-euro, from a German seller, who rejected my bid as I did not have a DM account). I have never seen an example of XVIIII for sale.

Here's the new coin:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/7391097910/lightbox/

And the Delos list.

CHOR PRAET 6
XII ANTIQVAE 5
XVII CLASSICAE 8
XVIII LYBICAE 4
CHOR SPECVL 9
PRI None
II 40
III 25
IIII None
IV 28
V 37
VI 36
VII 27
VIII 27
IIX not in Crawford, none in hoard.
VIIII 15
IX 20
X 28
XI 24
XII 28
XIII 20
XIIII 6
XIV 12
XV 39
XVI 24
XVII 22
XVIII 6
XVIIII None
XIX 16
XX 13
XXI 23
XXII 15
XXIII 24

Has anyone seen other examples of PRI, IIII, IIX, XVIIII?

Andrew
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 08:46:43 pm »

There is a new book coming out about the Legions by Stephen Dando-Coillins which tries to trace all of the Imperial Legions of Rome!  A huge undertaking!  I'd imagine he could trace some Imperial legions to those raised by Antony and Octavian.

http://www.amazon.ca/Legions-Rome-Definitive-History-Imperial/dp/1849162301/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I296XTDQDM9BVL&colid=2C8TWH4LZDIO9

I've read good opinions about the new Dando-Collins book. Here is a direct link to the book, with look-inside preview.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legions-Rome-definitive-history-legion/dp/1849162301

The second part of the book - history of the various battles - only covers the Imperial period (neglecting the fact that almost all of Rome's expansion occurred in the Republican period), hence concentrating on the period in which Rome's legions more often failed rather than succeeded, which is odd for a book that, from its substance, seems intended to be a definitive history of the legion. Of course I'm bound to be disappointed that it does not cover the Republic, but given its subject matter I think it's a particularly irrational exclusion.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 09:30:40 pm »

I've uploaded to Forvm, below the fold, an updated picture of all the Legionary types, missing only XVIIII. Click to enlarge.

All are from my own collection (!) except PRI, IIX and the golds. I guess I didn't realise that I collected Legionaries; it had not been my intention to try get them all, but whenever I saw a reasonable condition scarcer type (as with IIII today) I tended to pick it up.

Still, I have never considered myself as specialising in this area. If I was a real collector I would have bid for the IIX in NAC45, and I didn't. So clearly I didn't care enough. As I will update this picture from time to time as I get new coins (hopefully including XVIIII and IIX), here is also a link to it (the address should be permanent even though the image may change):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/7391454694/sizes/h/
thumbnail:

Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 09:57:48 pm »

Thanks Andrew, I am actively trying to collect all of them! I'm still on the hunt for a few...

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1822
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2012, 10:01:15 pm »

Thanks Andrew, I am actively trying to collect all of them! I'm still on the hunt for a few...

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1822

Terrific per-legion write-ups!

Clearly you are collecting them in a more deliberate manner than me!

If anyone should have an image of the elusive LEG XVIIII (19) could you please upload it and I'll also add it to the collage-picture.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 07:33:08 am »

Someone noted that I missed the recently auctioned LEG PRI example. See its picture below the fold.

NB perhaps it is altered / tooled. I cannot verify. It was sold by a seller whom I do not trust at all. There are dark areas all around the letters PRI. Maybe accidental. Maybe not. NNB. someone pointed out that the lettering style is consistent throughout, and thus is of the opinion that it is absolutely fine. Good point.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2012, 11:52:59 am »

As far as I knew there are only 3 or 4  LEG PRI known.  Is this one of them or a new one all together?  Strange that they would all be so well struck and in good states of preservation.   Are they all die matched?  I only have a small picture of one from Sear's Imperator's book.
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2012, 06:49:18 pm »

As far as I knew there are only 3 or 4  LEG PRI known.  Is this one of them or a new one all together?  Strange that they would all be so well struck and in good states of preservation.   Are they all die matched?  I only have a small picture of one from Sear's Imperator's book.

They are not die-matched, and none of those known are beyond suspicion. In fact the styles differ greatly. When one considers these two examples (see below) of such different styles, and none having a match anywhere else, the possibility still remains that one was an invention, and the other was an attempt to provide another example of that invented type. The eagle, and details of the standard are entirely different between these two coins. Any series consisting of just 2 or 3 coins, where these coins differ greatly from each other, and where all the known examples are GVF-EF (no worn examples exist), has to remain under a cloud until some die-linked matches pop up.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2012, 07:25:51 pm »

On their own they look okay but when you put them side by side something isn't right.  As you say all known examples are in excellent condition and with only 3-4 examples you would think they would be die matched.  It just doesn't sit well with me.  What did it sell for?
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2012, 02:14:20 am »

On their own they look okay but when you put them side by side something isn't right.  As you say all known examples are in excellent condition and with only 3-4 examples you would think they would be die matched.  It just doesn't sit well with me.  What did it sell for?

It sold far too cheap, 7k, when one might have expected 20-50k for the sole example of such a rarity in the current market.

Phil Davis advised me of a third example: Hamburger 96, 1932, lot 514 = M&M XIX, 1959, lot 165, which he described as "not particularly persuasive" and coming from a third die pair. There is not a fourth example. There are just these three. My experience of really rare coins is that once they become recognisable from some verifiable nice examples, then poor condition examples begin to come out of the cupboards and into sale rooms, and this is a particularly easy type to recognise. Bear in mind that 90% of legionary denarii are in the typical Fair to Fine condition. So there should have been 10 or 20 of these in worn condition for every one in GVF. Legionaries are perhaps the one type of RR silver that are not discarded when in low condition, so the worn examples would not have been thrown or melted.

This is why the type remains uncertain. 3 examples, 3 die-pairs, none worn, and of completely different styles and design details too... It would be as if someone offered a 1916 D dime with the mintmark in a different place. That's what 'different dies, and different design details' implies.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2012, 07:38:04 pm »

Just got a LEG IIII!!!!  To my surprise it went for under $60!!!!  I"ll post when it arrives in the next week.
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2012, 06:33:07 am »

Just got a LEG IIII!!!!  To my surprise it went for under $60!!!!  I"ll post when it arrives in the next week.

Congratulations! One of the really rare legions!
Logged

Potator II
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653


Error communis facit jus


WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 03:51:41 pm »

Just got a LEG IIII!!!!  To my surprise it went for under $60!!!!  I"ll post when it arrives in the next week.

Wow !
Good job. I'm looking forward to seeing it !

JC
Logged

Adrian W
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 664


WWW
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2012, 08:07:05 pm »

How do you determine which are the most common to the most rare as I find this interesting as I never realized you had multiple
Legionary coins but does make sense?

thanks Adrian
Logged

Highest Rated Zillow agent in the County
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 10:05:23 pm »

How do you determine which are the most common to the most rare as I find this interesting as I never realized you had multiple
Legionary coins but does make sense?

thanks Adrian

Take a look on page one of this thread.  It lists how many examples of each legion are found in hoard evidence. 
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Adrian W
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 664


WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2012, 07:01:33 am »

Thanks missed 1st page stupid me.Much appreciated
Logged

Highest Rated Zillow agent in the County
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 10:40:30 am »

LEG IIII arrived today:
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 11:31:15 am »

LEG IIII arrived today:


Nice clear number!
Logged

benito
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2662


quousque tandem abutere Sadigh pecunia nostra


« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 11:56:23 am »

LEG IIII arrived today:


Ready to exchange ?
Logged

Panathas
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2012, 08:30:42 pm »

Hi everyone,

Here is my first Marcus Antonius Legionary denarius, which I received it a few days ago.
It should be the XI legion. I do make an X and a possible I, when I look at the coin under light.
I'm happy to have added one to my collection.
Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2012, 10:44:50 pm »

Specimen counts from large hoards are usually very good indices of relative rarity.

For Antony's legionary denarii, the following quantities were contained in the Delos Hoard of 1905, according to Revue Num. 2003:

CHOR PRAET 6
XII ANTIQVAE 5
XVII CLASSICAE 8
XVIII LYBICAE 4
CHOR SPECVL 9
PRI None
II 40
III 25
IIII None
IV 28
V 37
VI 36
VII 27
VIII 27
IIX not in Crawford, none in hoard. Andrew, how do we know of this piece?
VIIII 15
IX 20
X 28
XI 24
XII 28
XIII 20
XIIII 6
XIV 12
XV 39
XVI 24
XVII 22
XVIII 6
XVIIII None
XIX 16
XX 13
XXI 23
XXII 15
XXIII 24

So the real rarities are PRI, IIII (Andrew, why not in your list?), IIX, and XVIIII.

Scarce are the two Cohort pieces and all with epithets, plus XIIII and XVIII. Andrew says some of these are common, but that impression is probably merely created by the fact that they are particularly sought after and sell for a premium, so preferentially make their way into collections and are offered by dealers.

Commonest are apparently II, V, VI, and XV. VI was the one Marcus and Verus chose to restore during their joint reign, doubtless in connection with a withdrawal and recoining operation. Probably that was the reason, its commonness, rather than any particular merit or imperial preference for that legion.

Just came across this, but not sure.  Notice the ring around "LEG" maybe from a recut die?
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2012, 02:11:39 am »


Just came across this, but not sure.  Notice the ring around "LEG" maybe from a recut die?

It looks ok to me, that's the normal effect around lettering around legionary denarii.

But where do you "just came across a LEG IIX denarius" Huh I want that coin.

Happy Christmas day to all. It's raining. But a meat-fest is in the planning so I guess we'll survive.

Christmas Cracker riddle: What are potoooooooo?
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2012, 07:34:11 am »

I've never seen that effect on Legionaries before.
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
carthago
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 816


Nervos belli, pecuniam


« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2012, 10:47:56 am »

I've never seen that effect on Legionaries before.

I think this is maybe a similar effect on one of my coins on RPC.  I've seen this on coins before and I'm not sure what causes it, perhaps a bit of die shift upon striking or recut die like you said.  To me, the style on that LEG IIX doesn't look right.  I've found another example in CoinArchives.  



Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2012, 01:19:23 pm »

Thanks carthago.  Interesting that again for a rare Legionary there is no die match...
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2012, 05:18:42 pm »


Just came across this, but not sure.  Notice the ring around "LEG" maybe from a recut die?

It looks ok to me, that's the normal effect around lettering around legionary denarii. [true, but I now think the whole coin is fabricated]

But where do you "just came across a LEG IIX denarius" Huh I want that coin. [I do not want that thing.]

Happy Christmas day to all. It's raining. But a meat-fest is in the planning so I guess we'll survive.

Christmas Cracker riddle: What are potoooooooo?

potatoes (pot + 8 o's).

I withdraw my support for the IIX.  I think it has been tooled from a much more worn legionary. I now know who sells it, a firm which is known not to be reliable as regards improved and altered coins and I show below another coin (Caesar elephant) currently on sale by that seller. It looks like tooled silver, unnatural/ scraped/ altered, weird style.  Just try finding a style match.

Thanks carthago.  Interesting that again for a rare Legionary there is no die match...

There's also no die match for the two LEG PRI shown earlier in the thread. I'm not bothered by no die match as such, but I am bothered that the style and fabric of the two LEG PRI's differs so much. If there were only a few dies one would at least expect 1 engraver. Some or all LEG PRI's may be fakes,. Some LEG IIX's may be fakes but others are certainly genuine.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2012, 05:30:56 pm »

Looking again at the LEG IIX, much of it is quite natural, including the style of the eagle and the typical recessions ghosting the lettering; the aplustre-end of the galley looks odd, as do the standards, and the contrast between the obverse corrosion and the smooth fields on the reverse. Conclusion: fake, tooled from a corroded or worn ordinary legion.

Perhaps a moderator could hive-off the posts on this thread since yesterday and shift them to the authentication board?
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2012, 09:41:07 pm »

I think it should stay here in this thread.  It's a good resource. We could start another thread on authenticity and put a link in this one to keep them together.

EDIT:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=85137.0
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
antesignanvm
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 144


I REALLY love this forum!


« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 12:40:38 pm »

This is my LEG IIII, unfortunately not in a good grade.

Logged

---In front of the insigna---
Lentulus Batiatus
Guest
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2013, 07:36:12 am »

I was about to get in a auction a LEG XII ANTIQVAE but escaped, I have only two common: LEG XIX and XIII
Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2013, 04:37:51 pm »

THIRTEEN!

 Grin
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Joe Geranio
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 982

Joe and Caligula at the Getty


WWW
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2013, 05:03:03 pm »

Andrew and Curtis thanks for the great info.  I want the IIX please/

Logged

CCAESAR
Bud Stewart
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 577



« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2013, 07:45:42 am »

THIRTEEN!

 Grin

Here we go Jay  Grin
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2013, 06:54:20 am »

Very nice!
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew S4
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2013, 08:18:43 pm »

Hi all,

I've just getting started collecting Roman coins over the past year. After getting over the initial "cool to own any Roman coin at all" stage, I've started to develop some collecting themes to focus my purchases. One of the themes is the Antony legionaries. I recently got my first, LEG II, denarius.

I was showing it to my dad and he asked me why Antony struck coins for individual legions. I am by no means an expert but I have been reading as much as I can about the subject but I realized I had no solid idea why he did. Is it just as simple as he wanted to honor his legions and decided to do so specifically? Was it to keep track of how many coins were allotted to each legion? I haven't run across individual legions being mentioned on a coin in this way before (again, I'm not expert!), if he was the first, what was his reasoning?

Posting this in hopes that this isn't such an obvious question that I have to exile myself in shame!  Grin

Thanks for any help you can provide and for the information already posted.

Andrew
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2013, 08:39:15 pm »

Welcome Andrew!  Good question!

Knowing the timing of the mint of these coins helps.  They were struck just before the battle of Actium.  Many people were defecting from Antony to Octavian including Generals with their legions.  By naming the legions Antony was literally showing the legions who is paying them.  Despite the defections many of his legions were fiercely loyal to him.  In fact even after Antony's defeat Octavian didn't trust some of them (LEG X). 

Collecting all the Legionary types is a great challenge.  I'm actively trying to do the same thing.  Many have tried....few succeed!  See my gallery for some write ups of Antony's legions and the important parts of their long history with Caesar and Antony.  Welcome to the Antony Fan Club!
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew S4
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2013, 10:32:37 pm »

Thanks for the informative reply Jay! I failed to mention I had also recently picked up a LEG XIII denarius. It's so interesting to stop and think of iconic moments such as the Battle of Actium and realize that people actually lived in that moment, it's not just legend. I may not end up with each legion's denarius but that won't stop me from trying!
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2013, 11:18:52 pm »

Thirteen!

Start a gallery and share them with us!
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew S4
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2013, 06:40:02 pm »

Working on the gallery tonight!
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2013, 03:12:57 pm »

Well the notorious fake seller Saxby's recently sold a LEG PRI denarius.  I will post it here in hopes of fostering more discussion and to keep discussions in one place:

First the other known LEG PRI denarii.  The last one sold by Saxby's

Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
numismaticman
Guest
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2013, 02:25:28 pm »

  For interest , the Lawrence sales catalogue of 1950 had his collection of Marcus Antonius Legionary Denarii listed in 3 lots 308/309/310 which sold for a total of £ 23 and 5 shillings .
  He had

 2 x Chort Praet
 2 x Chort Specul
 5 x LEG II
 3 x LEG III
 1 x LEG IIII
 1 x LEG IV
 3 x LEG V
 4 x LEG VI
 4 x LEG VII
 3 x LEG VIII
 2 x LEG VIIII
 1 x LEG IX
 4 x LEG X
 3 x LEG XI
 2 x LEG XII
 3 x LEG XII ANTIQUAE
 4 x LEG XIII
 1 x LEG XIIII
 1 x LEG XIV
 3 x LEG XV
 2 x LEG XVII
 1 x LEG XVIII
 2 x LEG XVIII LYBICAE
 2 x LEG XIX
 4 x LEG XX
 1 x LEG XXI
 1 x LEG XXIII
Logged
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2013, 10:36:40 pm »

  For interest , the Lawrence sales catalogue of 1950 had his collection of Marcus Antonius Legionary Denarii listed in 3 lots 308/309/310 which sold for a total of £ 23 and 5 shillings .
  He had

Very interesting even if hardly a random selection but rather an assembled collection. He's missing XVIIII as well as the elusive IIX and PRI. These types as well as IIII were absent from the Delos hoard. Lawrence had one IIII, as do I, so its probably not such a great rarity. The three he missed are also the same three missing from my collection. Modern fakes exist of PRI and IIX so I sometimes wonder are any examples genuine.
Logged

numismaticman
Guest
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2013, 05:44:06 am »

  For interest , the Lawrence sales catalogue of 1950 had his collection of Marcus Antonius Legionary Denarii listed in 3 lots 308/309/310 which sold for a total of £ 23 and 5 shillings .
  He had

Very interesting even if hardly a random selection but rather an assembled collection. He's missing XVIIII as well as the elusive IIX and PRI. These types as well as IIII were absent from the Delos hoard. Lawrence had one IIII, as do I, so its probably not such a great rarity. The three he missed are also the same three missing from my collection. Modern fakes exist of PRI and IIX so I sometimes wonder are any examples genuine.

 When you consider that Lawrence was collecting for over 50 years and was primarily a student collector so condition was not of prime importance then the missing pieces show that he had no opportunity to obtain them in that long period of time . He also had sources of supply not open to most collectors as is witnessed by the presence of a number of whole and part hoards listed for sale in his catalogue . Sadly compared to today the descriptions are in most cases all too brief . He also had strong connections to the British Museum and Royal Mint which for example enabled him to obtain one of the great modern British rarities a 1933 Penny which was then promptly hidden in a bulk lot by the cataloguer and bought for a trifling sum by Seaby's .
Logged
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2013, 10:09:05 am »

When you consider that Lawrence was collecting for over 50 years ... He also had strong connections to the British Museum and Royal Mint which for example enabled him to obtain one of the great modern British rarities a 1933 Penny which was then promptly hidden in a bulk lot by the cataloguer and bought for a trifling sum by Seaby's .

The best way to dispose of one's coins is in one's own lifetime, aided by one's own expertise, to make sure this never happens! Sadly, I think it's all too common. The disposal of the massive Boyd collection a few years ago was a prime example - marvellous coins were included in group lots with poor photos that no internet bidder could see properly. I also suspect that it's not always an accident when great rarities are hidden within auction lots or otherwise misdescribed.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2013, 12:50:42 pm »

I also have a IIII but it's the only one I've ever seen come up for sale, so while it may not be rare it's definitely at least scarce

Looking through my missing legions I just realized I'm missing VIII...just so happens Joe listed one yesterday so I bought it. Smiley  There are a few I want to upgrade but the prices of these have skyrocketed in the last few years. 
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
gordian_guy
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1772



« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2014, 07:22:30 am »



I am always late on these threads as I don't collect the coins but am still interested in the latest discussion. I have not read the thread in great detail yet, but one can obtain, if it is already posted in this thread I do apologize for the redundancy, the Delos article with a pile of plates from NR here:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2003_num_6_159_2516

One has to go to the bottom of the issue and download the plates separately.

c.rhodes
PS Interesting thread, thanks!!
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2014, 12:41:28 pm »



I am always late on these threads as I don't collect the coins but am still interested in the latest discussion. I have not read the thread in great detail yet, but one can obtain, if it is already posted in this thread I do apologize for the redundancy, the Delos article with a pile of plates from NR here:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2003_num_6_159_2516

One has to go to the bottom of the issue and download the plates separately.

c.rhodes
PS Interesting thread, thanks!!

This is a very useful download! The plates are a separate download, if you can see the pdf index at left, click on Planches to get the plates, which are between pages 13 and 40. Thank you for sharing the link.
Andrew

Here is the link for the plates:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2003_num_6_159_2750
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2014, 08:55:35 pm »

Another LEG PRI hit the market:

Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
carthago
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 816


Nervos belli, pecuniam


« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2014, 05:05:17 pm »

I was digging through a fantastic old auction catalogue that I purchased at NYINC and found an Antony LEG XXX.  No weights or dimensions, but here is the lot description.

Rodolfo Ratto - Lugano. January 23, 1924.  Monnaies de la Republique Romaine. 

1392 LEG. XXX. C. 65 fr. 400 (Antonia 145) De la plus grande rarité.  Beau.

Sold for 150 Fr Swiss.  For comparison sake, run of the mill Legionaries sold for 3-6 Francs in the auction.  What a wonderful auction.  If only my time machine was working...

It's not the same coin illustrated in Babelon.  Anyone have any addition info on the veracity of this issue or other pieces extant?

Logged
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2014, 07:26:58 pm »

Wasn't there a group lot that included LEG XXX, LEG XXV and another, in last years JD sale or Student Mentor sale? I certainly remember bidding on them. Undoubtedly fake as likely is the one you illustrate, but the recent NAC examples allowed one to examine the alteration rather more closely than the black and white old photo of a plaster cast in the Ratto sale. Whereas for LEG PRI LEG IIX I believe there are many forgeries but a few genuine, for legions above XXIII I believe that are all altered and I don't know anyone who has asserted otherwise since Babelon. I think one would need to examine the Ratto specimen in hand if one was to assert that it is genuine, an otherwise non existent type that could have been easily altered cannot be authenticated from a photo, in fact a presumptive fake.

edit: here's the lot. Just XXX, XXV
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=656944

Auction catalogs: working from memory that's the Bonazzi sale, a very great sale. I have a copy of Bonazzi, and I think at NYINC this came in a lot of 3 catalogs of which I missed the other two Ratto sales, if that was the lot you were lucky to secure it.
Logged

carthago
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 816


Nervos belli, pecuniam


« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2014, 11:00:57 am »

Good catch on the NAC example.  Pretty silly prices being fetched for coins that are known to be altered IMO. 

I would assume that the coin in the Ratto auction was considered genuine at the time considering the price it fetched. 
Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2014, 04:13:02 pm »

I managed to find another LEG IIII today which makes two in my collection:


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-113845


Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2014, 08:41:30 pm »

Well done. Odd that only this type and LEG XVIIII were missing from Paphos yet IIII crops up from time to time but XVIIII is never seen.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2015, 07:29:02 am »

There has been intermittent debate, and questions from time to time on the Fakes board, about certain wrong-style Legionary denarii that have been sold by well known dealers in recent years, thus that appear in hand as struck and ancient, and also wrong-style Legionaries that have been sold by more notorious eBay sellers in the same period, of very similar style, and that look probably cast.

For the record I attach in this and the next post a variety of such pieces that have been sold by well-known coin dealers. I call them "Pigeonaries"

I am not sure whether these are ancient and modern. They may be ancient imitations. Some, especially those sold by ebay sellers, may be modern and made in odd styles so as to somehow look Dacian or imitative (which is a great defence, "looks odd?? must be Dacian then"), and others, sold by larger auction houses, may be ancient. Part of my reasons is that I've seen some examples (not among those illustrated) that look distinctly worse in hand. Part of my reasons is that coins in such styles were never seen before about 2010 and were not included in the Phil Davis sale of Dacian imitations. I'm sure Phil would have found them if they had existed in older sources.

This belief of mine also extends to the other Imperatorial types recently offered, and specifically the Pompey Varro which have been sold in abundance by dealers the world over in the last few years, but once again were not to be seen before about 2010.

However, many well-respected experts disagree with me. So, these are not for the fakes reports. Furthermore, I have had a similar piece in my collection that I certainly thought genuinely ancient (though probably imitative). I just want to register my view here so as to make Forum members aware of this phenomenon, when they are considering buying supposed Dacian imitations of the Imperatorial periods or other types of the Imperatorial period in the wrong styles, such as the Pigeonaries here illustrated. Maybe they are all genuine, maybe they are all fake, maybe some are genuine and others are fake. I suspect the latter is true: of those illustrated in this thread, many may be ancient and some not.

Moderators: I would like this post to remain on the Antony Legionary Denarii stickie rather than moved to the Fakes board, given the lack of consensus, and that those experts who think these genuine are not Forum members, and as all they types I illustrate are Legionaries.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2015, 07:32:19 am »

There has been intermittent debate, and questions from time to time on the Fakes board, about certain wrong-style Legionary denarii that have been sold by well known dealers in recent years, thus that appear in hand as struck and ancient, and also wrong-style Legionaries that have been sold by more notorious eBay sellers in the same period, of very similar style, and that look probably cast.

For the record I attach in this and the next post a variety of such pieces that have been sold by well-known coin dealers. I call them "Pigeonaries"

I am not sure whether these are ancient and modern. They may be ancient imitations. Some, especially those sold by ebay sellers, may be modern and made in odd styles so as to somehow look Dacian or imitative (which is a great defence, "looks odd?? must be Dacian then"), and others, sold by larger auction houses, may be ancient. Part of my reasons is that I've seen some examples (not among those illustrated) that look distinctly worse in hand. Part of my reasons is that coins in such styles were never seen before about 2010 and were not included in the Phil Davis sale of Dacian imitations. I'm sure Phil would have found them if they had existed in older sources.

This belief of mine also extends to the other Imperatorial types recently offered, and specifically the Pompey Varro which have been sold in abundance by dealers the world over in the last few years, but once again were not to be seen before about 2010.

However, many well-respected experts disagree with me. So, these are not for the fakes reports. Furthermore, I have had a similar piece in my collection that I certainly thought genuinely ancient (though probably imitative). I just want to register my view here so as to make Forum members aware of this phenomenon, when they are considering buying supposed Dacian imitations of the Imperatorial periods or other types of the Imperatorial period in the wrong styles, such as the Pigeonaries here illustrated. Maybe they are all genuine, maybe they are all fake, maybe some are genuine and others are fake. I suspect the latter is true: of those illustrated in this thread, many may be ancient and some not.

Moderators: I would like this post to remain on the Antony Legionary Denarii stickie rather than moved to the Fakes board, given the lack of consensus, and that those experts who think these genuine are not Forum members, and as all they types I illustrate are Legionaries.

Four more Pigeonaries: note that the last has obverse legend IIII VIR RC rather than III VIR RPC, as well as being in the wrong style, and the second last one has reverse legend IEG S rather than LEG VI, as well as being in the wrong style. Note that the second one below has surfaces that look cast, and others have odd surfaces. Of the eight which I illustrate, four are of relatively rare and sought after varieties.
Logged

Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2015, 06:27:53 pm »

Andrew I agree, these are "off" and the high proportion of scarcer types makes me suspicious. 
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
swampaggie
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 33


« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2015, 05:49:46 pm »

If anyone should have an image of the elusive LEG XVIIII (19) could you please upload it and I'll also add it to the collage-picture.

While reading this excellent thread I noted that Andrew's request had gone unfulfilled.  ACS Search contains two examples of the LEG XVIIII denarius that were both sold via Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG (Auction 111, Lot 6514 and Auction 124, Lot 8531).

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=286080
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=362035

Cheers,

Jeremy
Logged

Jeremy
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2015, 01:23:06 am »

If anyone should have an image of the elusive LEG XVIIII (19) could you please upload it and I'll also add it to the collage-picture.

While reading this excellent thread I noted that Andrew's request had gone unfulfilled.  ACS Search contains two examples of the LEG XVIIII denarius that were both sold via Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG (Auction 111, Lot 6514 and Auction 124, Lot 8531).

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=286080
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=362035

Cheers,

Jeremy

Thank you Jeremy. Same reverse die. I wonder is it a single die type.

I'm very doubtful about many of the LEG IIX and LEG PRI that have been marketed. Isn't it odd that they don't ever come in smoothly worn condition like these XVIIII examples but only somewhat sharp and thus prone to tooling. Also odd that the styles of both vary so much whereas one would expect them to be single-engraver issues if not single-die issues. And despite their supposed rarity, the examples we see are never from the same die. I'm convinced that most of the IIX and PRI we've seen are tooled fakes, but I don't know which if any are genuine. So I don't intend to own the types. Unless I stumble across a well worn mis described example at a low cost.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2015, 11:22:49 am »

I've updated my collage of Antony Legionary Denarii, new picture below, with several coins upgraded and one new type XVIIII added on the prompting of Jeremy (swampaggie). The individual coins are relatively low resolution due to historic upload size limitations for a single image containing 37 coins, but it gives the picture.

The three aurei and LEG PRI are from BMCRR. LEG IIX and LEG XVIIII are from acsearch. LEG XXI and XV are Phil Davis'. The remaining 30 coins are, or were, in my collection.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4778



WWW
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2015, 04:47:55 am »

Here is an inventory of the LEG PRI fakes that have been discussed on the Legionary stickie thread:

Top coin in this post is the supposedly genuine (at least old) British Museum example. Below it a coin I believed fake
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=70907.msg505243#msg505243
Another presumed fake.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=70907.msg581461#msg581461
Today's addition
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=103542.msg636749#msg636749

I illustrate the four pieces below. Note how they can never get the lettering to match the obverse style, whereas the BM piece does match

Top - genuine - BM
Next three - presumed fake.

Have I missed any? There is more or less the same story with LEG IIX. What nails the LEG IIX fake story is that one occurs in what I call the pigeonary style (Dacian imitation). That's so incredible and implausible (of the tens of thousands of legionary coins in Dacia, what on earth would cause them to copy that single-die rarity ... unless it were modern) that it tends to increase my feeling that the pigeonaries are all modern fakes. Including all those Pompey Varro types.
Logged

carthago
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 816


Nervos belli, pecuniam


« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2015, 10:59:08 am »

There is more or less the same story with LEG IIX. What nails the LEG IIX fake story is that one occurs in what I call the pigeonary style (Dacian imitation). That's so incredible and implausible (of the tens of thousands of legionary coins in Dacia, what on earth would cause them to copy that single-die rarity ... unless it were modern) that it tends to increase my feeling that the pigeonaries are all modern fakes. Including all those Pompey Varro types.

I'm concerned about the widespread offering of these pigeonary types, especially highlighted by the seemingly universal acceptance of the Pompey Varro by sellers.  In my opinion, the Pompey's are almost certainly fake when you look at the first recorded coin of this reverse type (sold as a plated coin and definitely fake) in the CoinArchive sales record that quickly ushered all of these reverse "N" varieties to market.  I posted the coin here:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=102656.0;attach=260593;image

The problem as I see it is that these coins are being sold in vast numbers and the collective understanding of what is correct style for these issues as documented in over 100 years of published sales record will begin to be diluted.  These will be considered one of the acceptable style, either barbaric imitations or outright modern fakes, and we have legitimized a break in our authenticity defenses.  A lot of the Antony legionary denarii being offered these days don't look right and they're selling like hotcakes.
Logged
carthago
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 816


Nervos belli, pecuniam


« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2015, 07:40:40 am »

This LEG PRI is back up for sale in a European Auction, same seller as 2012.

 
Logged
TenthGen
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 173


« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2016, 03:09:27 pm »

Hello everyone,

This thread is a spectacular source of information! I wanted to inquire if any of you were aware of additional hoard data beyond the Delos hoard as it relates to Antony Legionary Denarii. In particular I am interested in hoards where at least 10 Legionary Denarii were identified and where specific legion detail was obtained.

I have thus far gathered data from the Delos Hoard and a hoard from Scotland reported by MacDonald in 1934. I am very interested in the Shapwick hoard as well, but I haven't found specific info about which Legionary denarii were present, only that they were there in large number.

Once I get another hoard or two added in I'll post the tabulated results here in an attractive format.

Regards,
Logged
TenthGen
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 173


« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2016, 09:11:51 pm »

In reference to the post above, I have aggregated data from 24 hoards out of ~110 examined for their Marc Antony Legionary Denarii frequency. To be included, a hoard needed to contain at least 10 total legionary denarii. This served to weed out extraneous individual coin finds. The majority of the hoards were investigated using the Coin Hoards of the Roman Republic database. A small number were obtained from primary literature (Delos, Shapwick, etc). In particular, I was able to get data on the Shapwick hoard by directly speaking with Dr. Abdy who was very helpful!

The data in aggregate is attached below (the first image in color for each hoard, the second without color for totals). You might want to click it to get a larger image.


There are a few things I would like to point out:

1) The frequency estimates from earlier in this thread are quite good.

2) The complete absence of LEG IIX could be due to a lack of a catalog number used to report them. Thus like the reversed imitative coins it could be lumped into a different or unidentified category. Alternatively, they aren't real at all.

3) LEG PRI is interesting - and a bit concerning. I encountered 4 instances of LEG PRI being named: Once as a placeholder for an obscured coin in the database, twice as a "Extraneous" find in a hoard that had <10 denarii, and once in a group of coins from Zara in Italy's entry in the CHRR database that used Crawford's own notes as a reference. I did not find any convincing evidence that PRI coins had ever been legitimately found in a hoard I surveyed, other than the Zara collection.

4) I can easily add or take away hoard groups from the figure below. It's hard for me to tell if what the CHRR calls a hoard is truly that vs a surveyed collection - especially when the articles are in a different language. This is only as good as the source data.

Hopefully this aggregation will be useful for anyone wanting an approximate frequency of Marc Antony Legionary Denarii. Grin
Logged
Aldo
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2017, 11:56:28 am »

Hi All,

I know this thread is old but thought this was the best place to ask about this matter. Whilst browsing a particular auction house's current catalogue they have for sale a Legion XXXIII. They make an argument for the existence of legion numbers higher than the usual accepted count of XXIII.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Just wondering as I'm collecting the legions and am intrigued by the possibility of more to keep searching for.

Thanks!


Mark

 





Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2017, 01:28:14 pm »

That's a very helpful graph.  How did I miss it?  Huh

Aldo, I believe that LEG XXXIII is a fake but I'd like to see a photo of the coin.  Could you post it without making reference to which auction house it is being sold at?
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Aldo
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2017, 03:13:52 pm »

Jay

I sent you a PM with the link - but here's the pic. The more I look at it the less convinced I am about the authenticity despite the argument made for it. Be interested to hear your thoughts after reading the auction houses arguments.



Mark
Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2017, 05:27:37 pm »

There is some discussion about these so-called unknown legions on previous pages.  Most believe they are tooled numbers and I tend to agree.  This one just doesn't  seem right to me but I'd like to hear Andrew's take on it.  Maybe he knows where it came from.
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2018, 04:40:08 pm »

Another LEG PRI has emerged

Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
TenthGen
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 173


« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2018, 12:51:53 am »

What bothers me about LEG PRI is that I've never seen a worn one. These Antony Legionary denarii circulated for such a long time, and it isn't difficult in the slightest to find worn, ambiguous, or off center examples of the other types. What are the odds that every example of a coin as rare as LEG PRI turns out to be pristine, unworn, and well centered? Equally concerning is that I cannot recall a single example of LEG PRI being found in a large, academically documented hoard (It's occasionally listed in tiny finds or as a placeholder).

I'm not the caliber of authenticator that many of you are, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if LEG PRI coins never really existed. I'd love to be wrong though.
Logged
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5563


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2019, 10:32:23 pm »

Two more LEG PRi for discussion

Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 
IG: @artisan.flooring
J. Grande
cicerokid
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 937


« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2019, 06:28:28 am »

The last two NOT obverse or reverse die matches I believe. What do you think?

John
Logged

Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas
TenthGen
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 173


« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2019, 01:04:50 am »

Well, the second one in Jay's most recent post is the same coin from his post in November. But yes, these definitely represent a variety of dies. The question is if any of them are real. It's pretty unusual to see die matches in Antony's Legionaries...in fact I'm not sure if I've noticed any in the ~5 years I've been collecting them except in the case of a few fakes here and there.

It still just bugs me that there aren't any low grade PRIs. It is absolutely the rarest Antony Legionary that might be real excluding errors. But as far as I know 1) they've never turned up in large well documented hoardsa, 2) There's never rough example where you have to closely examine them to see if it's PRI vs XXI vs XVI, and 3) It would be the only legionary denarii type to use alphabetical text in the numerical field. The rest place the non-numerical text around the edges. Sure, PRI could just stand for "I" or first, but why? None of the other Antony coins use an ordinal Latin form of a number. To really convince me, we'd need either well documented in situ finds or at least some examples of LEG PRI that don't look like museum display pieces every time. If I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me.  Grin

a: As I stated in my post with graphs a few years back in this thread, I've never found a LEG PRI or its Crawford number recorded as part of an actual documented hoard of more than 10 coins using the CHRR database. The Crawford number showed up once as a placeholder and twice in small hoards of less than 10 coins as an extraneous coin (without other legionaries I believe). The only example that might be legitimate was that Crawford himself apparently recorded one in a museum collection in Italy. But I'm just operating off what the database listed (in 2015).

Logged
Tacitus
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 464


« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2019, 11:33:24 am »

https://www.academia.edu/317599/_Actium_and_the_Legionary_Coinage_of_Mark_Antony_Historical_Economic_and_Monetary_Consequences_in_Thrace_The_Coin_Evidence_
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numism  |  Reading For the Advanced Collector  |  Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 12.421 seconds with 216 queries.